Duncan played 80 games that year. Looking back, maybe he shoulda got the MVP that year. His RAPM was definitely super sick.

Dirk: 78 GP, 2820 MP, 27.6 PER, 16.3 WS, +12.3 Roland Rating, +6.7 RAPM
Tim: 80 GP, 2726 MP, 26.1 PER, 13.0 WS, +10.5 Roland Rating, +10.2 RAPM

Still though, I think it's pretty clear that Duncan had a superior supporting cast that year (Ginobili led the team in Roland Rating and put up a 24.1 PER), and Dirk still led the Mavs to 67 wins compared to only 58 for the Spurs. Think I'd still give it to Dirk although it's incredibly, incredibly close and if you wanna give it to Duncan instead I wouldn't argue. BTW, here are the real first place votes for MVP that year:

Dirk: 83
Nash: 44
Kobe: 2
Duncan: 0

Once again, LOL voters.

Oh yeah I was looking at the wrong year Duncan played fewer games. Definitely gotta give it to BIG DUNC that year.

If you really think all Jordan had was an inside game, then you weren't watching him. Just because he didn't shoot threes, doesn't mean he couldn't shoot out to 19 feet consistently.

Because he has a better team? Remember, they all took their skills to South Beach!

Steve Nash: 2 (lol)

Jordan should've won in 93, 97, 99 and before 88, but the league was slurping on Magic and Bird's xxxx.

No, it was less impressive because he blocked a white guy.

Sooner.

You really want to argue, Prime Pippen, Prime Kukoc, Rodman/Grant with Phil is not better than non prime Wade (oft injured), prime-esque Bosh, and Spo? I understand that Lebron created his team and MJ had his dream team form around him, but that's a pretty silly reason to discount Lebron when clearly MJ had it so much better than Lebron ever had it in Cleveland.

Lebron was NEVER going to win in Cleveland they way they were designing the team and the short cuts they were trying to take to get guys (they would have gotten crushed by OKC or even the Bulls the last couple of years unless Cleveland binked a couple of players late in the draft which they seemed incapable of doing). Additionally, nobody wanted to come there.

What do you mean by this? The "obvious" interpretation (that Steve Nash's MVPs are lol) would be a non sequitur here, so I'm confused. Are you lol-ing at iggy for not giving Nash credit for 2?

Why would nobody want to go there? Seems like a prime chance to win multiple championships

Mucks-

Cleveland blows. Boozer left when he had a shot. Bosh wouldn't come. You really think anyone wants to come to Cleveland? Did you see their FA pickups and trades (they always got over the hill or trash FAs)? You must not watch the NBA at all.

LOL.

**** Cleveland. Its a chance to play with lebron.

Mucks-

If your theory was true, why didn't other greats in their prime flock there, maybe even below their market value? Hell, Jordan didn't even get that and his was in Chicago. I'm sorry Danny Ferry can't draft like the Bulls did with Pippen and then actively get Rodman, etc and find a great coach like Jackson. With that being said, other than the Lakers--most teams aren't fortunate enough for all time greats to fall into their lap in free agency.

wonder if they go dynasty if ray allen goes there rather lol hughes.

I understand why people might think LBJ is better - he is playing right now, MJ isn't. And yes, LBJ is playing at a level right now that might put him in the conversation of GOAT IF he maintained that level for a large portion of his career.

HOWEVER, you have to remember LeBron's past as well as the present to make a GOAT argument.

In Games 4 and 5 of the 2011 NBA FINALS, JJ Barea matched LeBron's scoring output. Try to find ANY player that matched MJ's scoring output in the finals. The GOAT acts like the GOAT when it counts. They don't disappear.

This is how the joke:

"If you give LeBron a dollar, he'll only give you 75 cents in change, because he doesn't have a fourth quarter."

It's a reputation like this for someone who is spending his eighth year in the league in the middle of his physical prime that takes him out of the conversation. Try to find any shred of jokes like this one on MJ. I have forgotten about more game-winning shots from MJ than Lebrons has made.

I have MJ > Lebron right now but the Jortards in general have awful awful awful arguments

Well MJ also gets the benefit that we forget all his problems/bad games.

it's a stupid joke considering how dominant lebron really is in the 4th quarter.

in game 5, Lebron had a triple double just like in his last game against Boston with Cleveland, he has a triple double in the loss. Again, Lebron isn't the scorer MJ is, nobody is arguing that. Lebron has maintained his current level for 6 years running with 27+ PER and 4 seasons above 30 PER.

sort by jokes made by haters, determine GOAT

i think the vast majority of us arguing for Lebron have MJ > Lebron right now, but the arguments on the other side are so awful it's hard not point it out.

Jordan spent the first few years of his career dealing with pretty much the same bs media stories: couldn't get it done, not good enough to lead his team to wins, etc.

stupid discussion anyways for a few reasons:

1) its still premature. the lebron crowd is basically assuming hes gonna keep up his production and win more titles (things he needs to do to have an argument against THE GOAT). why not save the actual debate for a few years from now?

2) lololds/nostalgia. most of the jordan crowd are filled with close-minded haters who grew up on MJ and are basically never ever ever going to remotely change their mind so basically both sides are just gonna talk in circles and goalpost shift for another million posts and nothing will ever be accomplished.

yup, this is where im at. i dont even think its a discussion at this point. maybe lebron is playing at the highest level ever. his combo of unbelievable court vision, rebounding ability, and defensive versatility could make up for jordan's edge in scoring/WIM.

still, the mj side sucks at arguing. its a relatively easy case ($tats/raaangz) and yet they revert to trying to belittle lebrons accomplishments thus far.

FWIW, as much as I argue for LeBron, I also still believe Jordan's the greatest right now. I just think that LeBron's had a better peak, has accomplished more at the same age, and is >50% to finish up with a better career than MJ.

I thought I was the same boat with you, but now I have to think a lot more about it.

I mean, what if Lebron dominates the league for the next ten years, and wins a bunch more rings, but people still make jokes about him disappearing in the fourth quarter?

Unlikely. Thanks to rosy retrospection and the artificial order & simplicity hindsight tends to impose on things, 'Bron's legacy, even if he doesn't win many more rings, will def ossify into a more idealized version of what it seems to be now. If SE existed back in Jordan's heyday, I'm sure the jokes about his character (and his pre-'91 failures) would be popular and "threatening" memes, but as time passes, the secondary details get drowned out by the dominant narrative.

The worst-case narrative is probably "LeBron had to bail out on his team and construct a 'fake' superteam to 'ship, and even then he couldn't win more than one." And that'll probably take root only if he's revealed to be a serial lamb rapist or some ****.

Oh, if Bron actually only finished with one ring, I'm sure there would still be snarky jokes aplenty all the way through his retirement. It's incredibly unlikely that happens though. I mean he's 60% to win a ring this year, and then probably an average of 25% each of the next 5 years, and a decent shot after that. His O/U is probably like 3.5. I think once he gets the third one, people are gonna forget all the potshots and go into full-on adulation mode.

25% seems low, especially if he actually ring chases -- but that'd be lame

Honestly, there is no argument. I've seen both of them play. One was clearly better/more clutch. I don't have to argue WHY Jordan's better. He just is, you can watch the games and see it.

Lebron camp giving in, telling us how they really feel.

This thread is dumb, lebron has a long way to go.