Noone (reasonable) hand waved it away. It's definitely a strong argument in favour of LeBron. It's just not a slam-dunk, end of discussion argument. It's also clearly not as drastic as 57 -> 55 vs 61 -> 19, which is all jmill really said in his post, and people acted like it was the dumbest thing they'd ever read.

I mean, both of their careers have followed pretty similar arcs. They start off being unable to win championships despite being clearly the best player in the league. Then they add some all stars. Then they win some championships. Neither of them magically got way better at 29 or whatever, they just got help.

I agree it's pretty clear that the Lebron teams without help in his early career are better than the MJ teams without help in his career. But it's also pretty clear that the MJ + other stars teams are better than the Lebron + other stars teams. I mean sure, maybe you can argue that MJ's help was better, but Wade and Bosh are pretty damn good. Love was long considered borderline top 5 (Irving... meh). My main point is just like the MJ > LBJ argument hinders on Jordan's team success, LBJ > Jordan argument hinders on 'carrying bad teams' success. Seems dumb when the NBA is all about winning rings (there are people in tz legitimately suggesting the Celtics should blow it up FFS).

To be fair though, LBJ + Love teams have never lost a Playoff series, so maybe I'm being too quick to call the MJ + other stars team better... gotta somehow beat this GSW juggernaut though

+1

wait... he's using the 2007 cavs (which didn't have Mo Williams) to explain why the 2011 cavs sucked?

Wtf are you talking about??? I just finally had time to look up hockey and Gretzky was 1-2 vs the islanders, once Edmonton got over the hump and won, the islanders never made it back to the Finals. So one could say their run was on the back end not right in the middle of their prime.

You do know that LeBron beat GS last year right? So we are going to blame LeBron because he can't pull off 10-1 type odds in winning a championship as a legit underdog 2 years in a row.

It almost sounds like we are all arguing about 2 of the GOAT players where someone can make a case for both.

Espn is jizzing their pants saying LeBron has scored over 30 in seven straight.

Jordan averaged 30+ for his career and playoffs.

2007 NBA FINALS
Game 3Tuesday, June 12Cleveland Cavaliers72–75 (0–3)San Antonio Spurs

Game 4Thursday, June 14Cleveland Cavaliers82–83 (0–4)San Antonio Spurs

yes and yes.

Very trumpian of you to dismiss cold hard truths

Looool the '07 Finals

When MJ was 22 he was playoffing with 30 wins and getting ruined in the first round

LABRON was carrying Boobie Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic, Varejao and Donyell Marshall to the NBA Finals by crushing a Pistons superteam

Getting embarrassed in the finals has the same result Jordan did, but Jordan won his first finals, and subsequent five. Bron just got to half the titles last year in one more try.

Looool indeed.

If LeBron beats this GSW team in the finals. It's over.

Anyone still stanning Jordan needs to have their brain checked at the nearest medical clinic. If LeBron could play against finals teams like Utah Jazz every single time he'd do it in a heart beat. Instead he's going up against multiple MVPs.

Nostalgia is such a powerful emotion. After Bron led in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks against 73 win team... Jordan could never do it, period.

Again at 32, I think Jordan had 4 and Lebron could have 4 with 4 more finals appearances...again for some reason losing early on in the playoffs is better than losing in the finals to people like you. 6/13 (6/15 if you count Washington) is still a great titles/years in the league measure; at 32 Jordan was 4/11 and Lebron could be 4/14 and is 3/14.

And don't romanticize Chris Bosh. That guy was good defensively in a pick and roll league but he made Roy Hibbert look like Kareem Abdul Jabar, was allergic to rebounds, and had 0 points in game 7 against spurs.

Yes, I do indeed consider championship round performance more important than first round record when discussing the best of all time. The **** else would I do?

I also forgot leBronze was part of a pathetic Olympic effort. Before the Stans come out and cry about him being young and only one year in the league, Jordan was the man on the college Olympic team and also hit a game winner for a NCAA title.

Before he played a minute in the NBA, Jordan was a college champion and Olympic champion. I guess a prelude of what his career and overall legacy would be.

LeBron had "King James" stitched on his drivers seat before he played a minute in the nba, also impressive. Then he missed the playoffs his first two years and got deep dicked the first time he went to the finals.

By your account, Jordan got deep dicked in his first time in the playoffs. These arguments are ******ed btw because you're incapable of thought.

Those Allen iverson led Olympic/FIba teams were doomed to fail. They didn't pick the right players and bron was young and barely played on both.

Jordan did average 33.4 points per game in the playoffs, but he only managed to do 6 in a row with 33+ points. 33.4 ppg is a wonderful achievement, but it doesn't detract from the fact that 7 33+ points in a game is a great achievement. Easy to see with probability. If MJ averaged 33ppg, then half the time he'd go over and half the time he'd go under. Therefore 7 in a row is 1 in 128 proposition. Note: It's not actually this because in the playoffs you play certain teams, so you might have an opponent that makes it easier to have 33+ points, but it's just stated to illustrate that it's still hard to do 7 in a row even with such a high ppg average.

We can call that the demarre carroll/jae crowder effect.

In his sixth playoff game ever, in his second season, Mike Jordan put up 63 pts, a playoff record that stands to this day. He did so without taking and obviously making a three pointer.

Oh yeah? Well, my Dad killed a bear and ate it.

It just means Jordan isn't as consistently great. Nice player though.

Lebron has had brute force teams, Wade/Bosh isn't how you'd ideally build around.

Anyone think Jordan/Wade/Bosh is a better team than Lebron/Pippen/Rodman?

Imagine how deluded you have to be to think 2007 is an indictment on LeBron. If he was a real winner he woulda just waited til his supporting cast was capable of winning 50+ games without him before making the finals.

Dropping 63 points in a losing effort in the first round >>>> making the NBA Finals. The only thing that matters is wins and RANGZ, zero nuance, unless of course Jordan is losing.

It's just sad that someone can't enjoy or appreciate something like the Pistons game because of an irrational extreme hatred for Lebron.

Don't forget ft%. Things that matter are ft%, points scored in first round losses, and rangz.

It was over at least a year ago. If labron manages to win yet another finals as a clear underdog it will just make this lol debate even lollier. Nobody's mind will change though so I don't know why people bother, although I do enjoy some of the snark.