LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 - Page 17 - Sporting Events and Fantasy Sports

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LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163

View Poll Results: GOAT?

labron

181 30.42%

MJ (Michael or Maple)

317 53.28%

Therapist

8 1.34%

George Mikan

5 0.84%

Shaq Attaq

21 3.53%

Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo)

13 2.18%

Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan

20 3.36%

"Roger Murdock"

3 0.50%

Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?)

9 1.51%

Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh)

18 3.03%

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06-05-2013 , 05:15 PM

#401

asdfasdf32

True Facts

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trainwreckog

...while also being capable of dominating as a pg, as mj did in 1989 when he started at the point the whole year, averaging 32.5ppg, 8.0 assists, 8.0 rebounds, and defensive player of the year.

Jesus Christ, be more wrong.

1) He didn't start as point guard the entire year. He was moved to the PG position starting on March 11 thru the rest of the season, and he went 13-11.

2) He didn't win DPOY that year.

EDIT: Why am I responding to a troll? Bah!

Quote

06-05-2013 , 05:16 PM

#402

iggymcfly

runs good at HORSE

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 26,042

Uh, what? In the first place, LeBron's been playing off the ball plenty with that little cut to the FT line being his favorite scoring play, and he's also dominating the ball much less than MJ did in his second title run, as he has a USG of 29.1% this playoffs compared to 37.1% for Jordan. You just randomly make stuff up and see if it sticks, don't you?

Quote

06-05-2013 , 05:16 PM

#403

Rei Ayanami

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Quote:

Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

2) He didn't win DPOY that year.

He averaged it, though.

Quote

06-05-2013 , 05:20 PM

#404

asdfasdf32

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami

He averaged it, though.

Depend on how you wanna do the math; he was 5th in voting that year.

Quote

06-05-2013 , 05:29 PM

#405

trainwreckog

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,137

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

rather than argue the point i'm making (about being able to dominate on and off-the-ball), you choose to cherry-pick a minor, immaterial statistical mistake i made in the post, and rail on that, rather than try to argue my point, which you know you can't argue.

how can lebron be goat, when he can't dominate off the ball, and the guy he's competing with could do both?

i guarantee, at some point, lebron's INability to dominate off-the-ball will cost him at some point. he won't get anywhere near 6 rings.

Quote

06-05-2013 , 05:31 PM

#406

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

it has been pointed out several times that usage does not measure ball domination.

so nice try.

did you read my high-level, concise descriptions of ows and dws?

i am up-to-speed on the stats, as you all have been. so you can't get away trying to pull a fast one like that.

try again.

your boy can't dominate off-the-ball. that is a fact. where is mcbeef's table? i want lebron included on there.

Quote

06-05-2013 , 05:35 PM

#407

asdfasdf32

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trainwreckog

did you read my high-level, concise descriptions of ows and dws?

Your troll is showing again...

Quote

06-05-2013 , 05:36 PM

#408

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

Uh, what? In the first place, LeBron's been playing off the ball plenty with that little cut to the FT line being his favorite scoring play, and he's also dominating the ball much less than MJ did in his second title run, as he has a USG of 29.1% this playoffs compared to 37.1% for Jordan. You just randomly make stuff up and see if it sticks, don't you?

so are you saying lebron's off-the-ball game is in the vicinity of mj's?

because if that is what you are saying, we can save everyone's time right here and just agree to disagree.

it's not even remotely in the vicinity, of being in the vicinity.

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06-05-2013 , 05:41 PM

#409

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

Your troll is showing again...

dude, u scurred to argue my points?

no, you'd rather point out that mj won dpoy in the 1987-1988 season instead of the 1988-1989 season.

also, from everything i've read, mj played pg the entire 1988-1989 season.

regardless, he dominated the ball under doug collins and had better all-round averages than lebron.

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06-05-2013 , 05:42 PM

#410

iggymcfly

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Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 26,042

I'm saying that LeBron's very good off the ball, and far from dominating control of the possession, plays off the ball more than most big perimeter scorers. Obviously, Jordan did more off the ball since he ran the triangle which leads to more cutting and off-ball movement than a typical offense, but I don't think there's some big difference in their abilities there, no.

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06-05-2013 , 05:42 PM

#411

SteelersDMW

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Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,041

Quote:

Originally Posted by trainwreckog

both players did what they had to do for their team to make the Finals.

but lebron's teammates underperform and it almost cost his team until wade pointed out the suboptimal nature of their play.

mj's teammates did not underperform.

also, mj's game 7 vs knicks was easily better than any game lebron has played thus far.

his Finals was pretty legendary too.... meh - shoulder shrug - stats are close, mj far more adaptable & led an optimal style that made his team superior to bron's.
.

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06-05-2013 , 05:44 PM

#412

trainwreckog

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lebron's never started at pg either, so your point is really bad and really a thread derail.

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06-05-2013 , 05:45 PM

#413

Rei Ayanami

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trainwreckog

no, you'd rather point out that mj won dpoy in the 1987-1988 season instead of the 1988-1989 season.

To be fair, this was a factual error he spent six words correcting--a correction you've thus far spent ~11x as many words bitching about.

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06-05-2013 , 05:46 PM

#414

iggymcfly

runs good at HORSE

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 26,042

Quote:

Originally Posted by trainwreckog

dude, u scurred to argue my points?

no, you'd rather point out that mj won dpoy in the 1987-1988 season instead of the 1988-1989 season.

also, from everything i've read, mj played pg the entire 1988-1989 season.

regardless, he showed he can dominate the ball and average the same assists as lebron.

Hey, look! More falsehoods! Color me shocked. LeBron averaged 8.6 APG in 2009 compared to 8.0 for Jordan in 1989. If you look at AST% instead which is a much more accurate stat, LeBron had more assists than Michael's career high in 5 of his last 6 seasons.

Edit: Looks like you ninja-edited as I was quoting and it changed your post to the edited version. Originally the quoted post said that Jordan had more assists per game than LeBron ever did in his '89 season.

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06-05-2013 , 05:48 PM

#415

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

then you simply aren't capable of noticing important nuances in the game.

mj dominated off-the-ball in so many ways you are unaware.

when lebron falls far short of the 6 rings, you will be scratching your head, and i'll be stroking my beard.

we agree to disagree.

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06-05-2013 , 05:49 PM

#416

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

but lebron doesn't average as many assists as chris paul, so there.

again, the argument is not about assists.

it's about whose style resulted in the team that could play at the highest level.

to me, that's about maximizing everyone's performance equity.. mj understood how to do that better, but like i said, we'll have to agree to disagree since you think lebron's off-the-ball game is in the vicinity of being in the vicinity of mj's.

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06-05-2013 , 05:53 PM

#417

asdfasdf32

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trainwreckog

also, from everything i've read, mj played pg the entire 1988-1989 season.

Nope.

Quote:

regardless, he dominated the ball under doug collins and had better all-round averages than lebron.

Pace, brah. 97 compared to 91.4.

Btw, just for comparison, here are their respective (non-adjusted) stats playing the point guard position full time (24 games for MJ from March 11 thru the rest of the season, and 12 games for LeBron when Mo Williams was injured in the 09-10 season).

MJ: 30.4/9.2/10.7, .593 TS%, 13-11 record
LJ: 32.0/7.2/10.8, .607 TS%, 11-1 record

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06-05-2013 , 06:33 PM

#418

trainwreckog

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the pace argument is fair.... as is the competition argument, since there were 23 teams as compared to 30, so mj had much fewer cupcakes on his sched.

but mj's numbers were still super-sick as the ball-dominant pg-STYLE dude, just like lebron has done, and that was my point in bringing up those stats, whether i was off on which year he was dpoy or some other immaterial human error.

and of course, in addition to being able to dominate ON the ball, mj dominated even more effectively off-the-ball, something lebron is far from being able to do.

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06-05-2013 , 06:38 PM

#419

asdfasdf32

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trainwreckog

...something lebron is far from being able to do.

Wtf are you basing this on?

Note: Not dominanting off the ball != Not being able to

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06-05-2013 , 06:47 PM

#420

trainwreckog

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i base it on watching the games lebron plays, and then watching old youtube vids of jordan games.

their styles were soooooo different.

mj understood "okay, i can take a bunch of dribbles at the top of the key in an attempt to set up a look close to the hoop, or, i can just go CATCH the rock 7 feet from the hoop. hmmmm... which one is best for my team? probably the latter.. not sure what the defense can do if i catch it 7 feet from the hoop.. probably crap their pants and ruin their gameplan.. in the meantime, if a teammates has a decent look, he can take it."

playing off the ball is out of lebron's comfort zone. that's not how he learned the game.

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06-05-2013 , 06:49 PM

#421

trainwreckog

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,137

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

Note: Not dominanting off the ball != Not being able to

ah, life is tricky isn't it?
'
if you are only capable of doing something with a gun to your head, then are you really capable of doing it? chances are, no one's going to put a gun to your head.

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06-05-2013 , 07:05 PM

#422

asdfasdf32

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trainwreckog

ah, life is tricky isn't it?
'
if you are only capable of doing something with a gun to your head, then are you really capable of doing it? chances are, no one's going to put a gun to your head.

Ah, so you're basing it on nothing. Gotcha.

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06-05-2013 , 07:08 PM

#423

trainwreckog

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,137

did you read my previous post to that?

i watch youtube for old mj footage, and tnt for bron footage. works pretty well.

try it yourself. here's youtube of mj from 1989 ecf, game 3, where he does a bit of everything, including the game winner taking rodman off the dribble.

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06-05-2013 , 07:11 PM

#424

trainwreckog

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,137

lebron can't dominate off the ball because he's never dominated off the ball.

i base it on that.

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06-05-2013 , 07:12 PM

#425

asdfasdf32

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trainwreckog

did you read my previous post to that?

Ya, and you didn't answer the question. You just gave your view of their personal playing styles without addressing why you feel LeBron isn't capable of playing off the ball (your claim).

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