Don't forget Tracy McGrady!

In this discussion there are a few things not fully being taken into consideration. What does it mean to be the best ever. Is it rings, stats, pure ability, intaerngibles (ie bring teammates up to higher level). If we are going on pure skill then it is james. He is pure skill personified. However, Iin my view the GOAT has to have something no one else has. He has to transcend pure skills and stats...even rings. There has to be something so unique that no one else can do.

So lets break it down.

Rings...russell has more then both men combined. Very few consider him to be the greatest. So the rings dont really tell the whole story.

Stats...Oscar did everything lebron did long ago, so we cant say he is unique. Heck jason kidd was a triple double threat at pg. Jordan was most dangerous scorer ever, but wilt and others were amazing in their own right. So stats dont answer the question since you can argue all day on behalf of both.

So in my opinion what separates the GOAT afrom all others has to be an intangible that is not found anywhere else. The only person in the GOAT discussion who truly separates theirself from all others is Jordan. There are two things in my opinion that he alone possessed far above what anyone else has ever shown. The ability to transform his game and his pure competitive spirit.

Firstly, Jordan is the only player ive ever seen to completely change his playstyle and remain the best of the best. Jordan went from the most dangerous perimeter/slasher to the best post player and perhaps the best midrange shooter of all time! Not only was he able to accomplish this feat, but he had the ability to become whatever you need at any moment. He could turn into rodman and bring down 15 boards if needed, he could become magic and make insane passes, he could lockdown anyone and force a turnover. lebron is really good at everything all the time, but jordan had the ability to transform into whatever was needed at any given time.

Jordan is also probably the most competitive athlete of all time. His sheer will to dominate is unmatched. I remember a story where a group of the bulls went over to one of the guys house. He had a ping pong table setup and they had a tournament. Well Jordan got beat pretty bad. So what does he do? He immediately goes out and buys a table and becomes obsessed in mastering it. So the next time they played, he beat everyone so badly they all refused to ever play him again. Can you see lebron doing that? The answer is obvious.

Jordan also was known as the toughest player mentally. He was a prolific trash talker. It was very common for him to tell whoever was guarding him exactly what he was going to do on any given play and dare them to stop him. He would even tell them which direction he was going to drive or turn for a fadeaway. He destroyed people mentally and he loved doing it.

So these are the reasons why I consider jordan the GOAT. Its more than stats, skills, rings, or PER. Its about a legacy that may never be duplicated by anyone ever again.

One thing about these conversations that always surprise me is people talk about the players with no consideration for the eras or who they play against. It really isn't comparing apples to apples. You have to somewhat breakdown the eras, which can be pretty hard.

If you're just comparing resume to resume then Jordan GOAT

People who are 14 and have been watching basketball for 6 years.

They would still think Kobe? Maybe Harden now. But unlikely Wade. In the last 6 years all nba team appearances...

Player - First Team/Second Team/Third Team
Kobe - 4/0/0
Wade - 1/1/2
Harden - 2/0/1

The argument has been made in TZ analytically. I think it might be the majority opinion of those inclined to #'s, I don't really have an opinion tbh because of some of Kobe's warts.

Bump for space jam 2

Second best SG of all time is Jerry West. Then Kobe over Wade basically due to durability. Peak Wade way better than peak Kobe tho.

I got #KobeSystem as 2nd best SG oat

I got Jerry West as a poor mans JJ Redick in todays NBA tho

Maybe I am wrong and it is rich mans, tough to say.

Wade is clearly better than Kobe if your goal is winning. Never saw West play, so can't really say. Gasol would have more rings than Lebron if he'd had the same support on the wings.

Prime Kobe>Prime Wade for me

I have Kobe> prime Wade and the second best SG of all time.

Of course you would -- because you are usually wrong.

Kobe is the most overrated athlete of all time.

So instead of looking at efficiency numbers you are saying Jordan has more WIM in Ping Pong?

Jordan > Lebron

But it is much closer than people think. If Lebron puts up 3-4 more good/great seasons then he will surpass Jordan.

LeBron will definitely do that.

He can always bulk up and play a Karl Malone + 3 point type game when he loses a half step or whatever.

I'm with you on West being the truth, but he was also 1/9 in the Finals.

Boston slappys gonna Boston slappy.

RE, someone's comment about West:Reddick, West really truly played just like Kobe. Or rather, Kobe played just like West.

Why does that make me a Boston slappy? What other athlete would you be cool with 1/9 in the Finals? While also considering RUSSELL overrated no less?

Everyone lols at Boston's early rings cuz 8 team league... Well, given that, West should have binked more than one.

Because Chamberlain WIL and lollllllllllllllll Elgin Baylor

I mean, West couldn't get his RANG until after lollllllgin Baylor retired

You don't racist at all.

It's like if Jordan was on the same team as Iverson and Iverson kept chucking.

You saw those Baylor games. He was legit awful chucktard.

I think probably Jordan is the best player ever, but it's much less clear cut than people think. The difference between Jordan and Bird and Adrian Dantley is just a lot less than people think. There's too much results oriented thinking.

The difficulty in evaluating Lebron is that his repulsive twatlike personality generates a bias that is hard to screen out.

By three advanced statistics (PER, true win share & true +/-) averaged over each player's three best seasons, combined into an equation that results in "prime number" MJ is a little bit better than LeBron but it's close.

#1Michael Jordan: 21.33
#2 LeBron James: 21.06

The question then becomes, are LeBron's best years behind him? If they are than his "prime number" won't improve and the discussion is over MJ was better than LeBron. But they are both quite a bit better than Kobe, which is ultimately what's really important in life. (#25 Kobe Bryant: 15.79)