Not much better than EM sliding that Abe Lincoln sentence in the middle of a rolled out carpet of words that perfectly explain why MJ is the king in the eyes of the world.

Sure Pippen > Parker but you've got Ginobili/Bowen/Pop as well. That's great he carried the '03 Spurs but they still had those guys I just mentioned/SJax/old DRob and they faced the Nets in the finals. I guess that 1 title is more impressive than Jordan's titles but it doesn't mean he would win 6 in 7 years of playing.

Using 2014 to favor Duncan over MJ is flawed too, cmon he was a top 10-15 player last year and well past his prime. You could make a good argument he wasn't the best player on that team and even if he was it was more of an ensemble. MJ was by far on his team and likely in the entire league for all 6 of his rings.

Duncan binked too though. To get drafted by a team that had D Rob/Pop is a lot different than a LeBron going to Cleveland situation. Duncan caught the league at the right time as well once Shaq/Kobe brokeup there really weren't many great teams in the West. Just the Suns/Mavs and the rest were pretenders.

MJ didn't play with an all-star until his 7th year or so, Duncan played with a HOF big immediately. How isn't DRob an all time great #2? He is 1 of the top 15 players ever and was still just slightly past his prime Duncan's first 3-4 years.

This is like saying Beckham will go down as GOAT because of his brand. This makes MJ a lesser Pele. But Maradona, despite being even more hated during his career than Lebron ever was, and not having anywhere nearly the same statistical success that Pele had, is now considered the GOAT among fans. People talk about the next Maradona and not about the next Pele. When FIFA set out to give a GOAT award, Maradona won the internet voting decisively and they had to rig the process just to make Pele a joint winner:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_P...of_the_Century

When Maradona was still playing, Pele was considered GOAT and nobody thought it was close. Maradona was one of the most hated players in Italian soccer - it was like A-Rod + Bonds + Lebron hate combined. He was about as popular as Mafia hitmen. He failed drug tests multiple times, scored a goal with a hand, cheated on his taxes, went just 1-1 in world cup finals and had moderate, but not great success in Italy. Pele was, on the other hand, untouchable GOAT, the man who defined soccer itself. In the 80's and early 90's, to think of anyone else as having been close to Pele was heresy. I had never seen Pele playing soccer but I knew he was the GOAT. There was no question, no debate, no controversy.

Now no one remembers Pele playing anymore so non-Brazilians who pick Pele over Maradona are going by stats. MJ won't even have these supporters - team loyalty doesn't extend to former players the way nationalism does and MJ doesn't have the same kind of statistical dominance over Lebron. In short, MJ is a less dominant version of Pele and Lebron is a more dominant, more popular version of Maradona. Just about the only way Lebron doesn't take over MJ's throne is if someone else gets there first. The Decision will be remembered more as a reminder of Lebron's utter dominance and part of the Lebron myth where an immature hero goes on a journey to get away from his surroundings only to learn more about himself and realize the importance of his roots and come home a hero. It's a classic story arc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

There are plenty of videos of Jordan playing...he played 13 years ago

The older guys have much less tape on them

Jordan isn't gonna lose his GOAT title

Lol at trying to shoehorn Lebron into the monomyth, you write like George Lucas. First, about Pele, I don't think that Maradona has completely usurped his throne. Among casuals, Pele's name still has tons of gravity, like if we went to a game of 8-year-olds this afternoon and one of them started styling on everyone, mr loudmouth dad is as likely to yell out "way to go Pele" as Maradona or Messi. But still, it's progress to see you compare Jordan's legacy to Pele's, since last post you were comparing it to Jerry West's.

I think you're right that for most of us Maradona did eclipse Pele, but I think you have the reason wrong. The reason people loved Maradona is because he was beautiful. Maradona was a controversial player/cocaine fiend throughout his career, but his charisma and athletic grace kept everyone coming back. Jordan has that too. Just look at this thread, the pro-LBJ camp keeps trying to score points by saying over and over what a dick Jordan is, and they're frustrated because all that stuff just bounces right off MJ. But that's what happens when you've won the crowd.

Right or wrong, in terms of charisma Lebron is more like Ronaldo. Admired but not exactly trusted, well-liked but not swooned over. Fwiw, I think Lebron will get there, I think in twenty years Joe Casual will look back and put Lebron on Basketball Rushmore...but that he'll be one of the guys tucked into the middle, literally and figuratively forever in Jordan's shadow. Though granted there might be like five or six yards of Lebron's forehead dome that gets some permanent sun.

And like Nicholas just said, the whole "memory fades" argument is a solid argument when you're Thog the caveman grunting around the campfire about your great-grandfather Thoga son of Thog. The Pele comp doesn't work because one of the biggest reasons Pele's legacy is fading is that his video sucks. But Michael Jordan was the original global superstar, he practically invented ESPN and the highlight tape, and youtube is forever. For the unwashed 99%, his highlights are always going to be more beautiful than Lebron's.

I'm not saying I have him #1 just I'm open to it. Yes his FT is an obv reservation. Also if one were to concede your argument that just means peak Shaq would've been Orlando Shaq, if the era was diff maybe he never gains all that weight or at least to that degree. That guy was a gazelle comparatively.

I remember Young Kobe coming in as a sub and just chucking

He did that both of his first two seasons against Utah in the PO's

Yeah maybe he doesn't gain all that weight. Tough to say. Don't really recall seeing him defend PnR much on Orl. On LAL he was pretty atrocious though. Him and someone like Curry in the same game just seems brutal.

Just in general he is a a massive dude either way and the game isn't kind to 7'1 300 pounders knees these days. I think he would likely incur more health issues.

He was basically some semblance of MVP caliber dominant Shaq from 95-05. Seems like a long time to stay healthy with all the movement on D he would be subjected to.

I think you're falling back into overall rankings chatter and not bearing in mind that we were just talking about peak for a moment.

Peak can either be 1 day (Assani's definition) or I think the more commonly accepted 1 year/season. So if we're talking peak than all the career injury talk is somewhat irrelevant.

Your argument is a good one for why Duncan may belong ahead of Shaq overall though.

Yeah I was just moreso making a general commentary I'm not sure how he would fare defensively vs all the PnR now because he sucked at it.

Then his sheer dominance offensively I feel might be cut short because of what I said.

Only the first one has to do with peak obviously.

arguing who was the best basketball player from ages 26-30yo, isn't arguing who's the best basketball player of all time.

Messi will take that title from him soon, if he hasn't already. In fact, within 10 years, I'd guess that a sizable number of soccer fans will say that the two greatest soccer players ever played against each other in the same league.

lol

I have always thought he should change his name to James LeBron.....I actually thought that was his name for a little while. I remember telling my brother about this guy James Lebron that had potential...

Guys, I understand that you need your jerkoff materials from time to time but normal people don't watch sports reruns. MJ's GOAT status has nothing to do with people watching his ESPN highlights and classic reruns but with the people who watched him play way back in the day telling stories and stats that anyone can look up. People won't be watching Jordan reruns in 30 years because no one would care enough to do so. Maybe they will be popular in nursing homes around the country.

The hatred that Lebron arouses is quite incredible - it's like Lebron is all that anyone wants to talk about - and much like the hatred against Maradona, this will add to his legend. People are willing to talk about how great Mo Williams and Z and Danile Gibson were just to rewrite history and diminish Lebron. And Maradona is not remembered for his charisma - during his playing days none of this mattered and he was not quite the icon that Lebron is now. As for the beauty of his game - lots of Pele fans thought Maradona was too effortful, too physical and relied too much on his strength and athleticism, unlike the skinnier Pele whose style was considered far more graceful and beautiful and according to his fans, skillful. It doesn't matter - his sheer talent was obvious and everyone knew he was an all-time great but only after he stopped playing that his place in history was evident. No one wanted to give him his dues while he was still playing because he played against your team. Lebron is like Maradona, only more popular, more likeable and more dominant. You can't compare Maradona's reputation right now against Lebron's because we all know that GOAT-level players tend to peak in popularity after they retire. I agree that Lebron doesn't have the ideal personality for a star but this matters less the more time passes. It wasn't as bad as Maradona's or many others who are remembered as all-time greats.

For those of you who don't remember or are too young, there were very good reasons why Maradona wasn't as popular as he should've been given his greatness. There's definitely some similarity between him and Lebron, in terms of their background, certain discomfort with stardom, introverted nature and how they were treated by the media though Maradona was so much more extreme and suffered from more obvious character flaws. Here's a fairly in-depth article on Maradona from back in the day:

http://www.si.com/vault/1990/05/14/1...-the-world-cup

.

Lebron was able to take some relatively scrub teams deep in the play-offs because the eastern conference was a joke. Just like before that how Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson could carry east teams to the play-offs just so the Lakers could crush them. There was a long stretch where the Western finals was the real finals. The Pistons were the rare team that for 2 years could compete. It was no surprise when they would finally play a western conference team (Spurs) and get swept easily. In the last 15 years there's usually only been 2 or 3 teams in the east that are better than the West's 8th seed. And if it wasn't for a flukey Ray Allen rebound 3 pointer and James bricked the tying attempt he'd be 1 for 6 in finals.

GOAT talent though.

Well that's one way to frame it

Wonder if you'd refer to Bron with the same narrative

Well this is about as starkly as you can make it that you're results oriented.

As if the Spurs had made more shots than MJ would've just shot better than (12-39). He knew he only had to make 12 field goals and shoot 31%.

lol @ Duncan not contesting an ASG dunk and that being a sleight.

Candy wants it one way comparing pele/maradona to Jordan/lebron

Peak should be 2-4years minimum

Jordan shot 12/39 in a November game with fresh legs? Wow.

This kid (twog) has been banned at least 15 different times here over the years.

Mods letting him slip through the cracks temporarily here.