Kawhi exploded and emerged as the #1 option on the Spurs as the guy with 4th highest usage, half of his FGA's were 3's.

yeah but from 9th minute in the 3rd to the 2nd minute in the 4th, he had the highest USG

TT is fine. Kyle Korver joined the team mid season, is old and like Kukoc is a horrible defender. Deron is old and not that good. In fact he was worse than bad in the finals but again keep talking up the Cavs/Heat benches and keep putting down the Bulls, it's hilarious and just shows your biases. I'm not saying the Cavs/Heat benches are awful but compared to the Spurs/Warriors they aren't great and isn't that, that really matters when it comes to winning titles?

Again the stiffs are pretty much comparable. Again you say they were reputed role players but for the most part none was that great. Again, Pippen, Rodman are nothing to sneeze at especially since Pippen plays all world D and Rodman can defend and rebound. Michael also had better coaching throughout his title runs.

If Lebron got Wade at 25 and in his prime, you're legs might have more to stand on. The risk with Wade was always injuries and that's exactly what happened. When you have a big 3 and #2 ****ing sucks, guess what you lose to good teams. What could Lebron do to fix Wade that series? Is he a trainer or a doctor or can let Wade borrow his genes?

.
stats as #1 options:

love 2014:. 26.1/12.5/4.4 and 26.9 PER

bosh 2010:. 24.1/10.8/2.5 and 25.1 PER

pippen 1994:. 22.0/8.7/5.6 and 23.2 PER

yet they were lebron's 3RD options!!!.. lebron still had wade/kyrie.. ..

and why doesn't lebron have dynasties with this talent??

because his teams lack dynasty teamwork - every key teammate saw their assists go down alongside lebron, so the team ranks low in assists and teamwork, and needs super-team talent (shown above) to win

if kyrie, love, and bosh were so good, then why did the only make the playoffs 2 times in a combined 16 seasons?

and combine jordan with those guys and they absolutely do not become a dynasty bc wade falls after 3 seasons nor are they able to beat this goat warriors team. esp if his 2 best mates are injured for the finals series.

similarly, transport lebron and his teams to the 90s and they win just as much as jordan. or transport them to the early and mid 2000s and he stacks titles.

you are blaming lebron for running into the best team of all time. and yet, he actually did beat them once. its absurd.

superstars win. they lead teams to the playoffs and win playoff series. irving, love and bosh never did. never once made the 2nd round and only twice made the playoffs. even in the weak east bosh and irving rarely could make the playoffs.

When you go from 3rd option to 1st and your #1 and #2 options are some of the highest usage players all time, you expect there stats to fall. Again are you this dense? Your stats don't really account for how much better Pippen is defensive than Love/Bosh too especially with non ball stats.

In Pippen's peak he was regularly averaging 5-6 DWS a season. Bosh in his best year in Tor was 3.5 and peaked in Miami at 4. Likewise, Pippen's DRPM is in the 2-4 range while Bosh is in the 1 range in Tor and 0 range in Miami. Likewise, Love was typically in the 1.5-2.5 DWS range in Minnesota and his peak has been in the 3-4 range in Cleveland; Love's DRPM has been basically 0 his entire career. So again, to ignore the fact that the stats you share don't show that Pippen is an all-world defender who is going to have an easier time showing his value to a team with the GOAT scorer than Love/Bosh will when they literally have 2 of the top 20 scorers all time as #1 and #2 options.

Wade is 4th in usage all time, Lebron is 7th and Bosh despite playing with Lebron/Wade for 4 years is still 105th.

It might have been better for Lebron to have recruited all world defenders than scorers as his 3rd option but that's obviously a lesson learned. It's hard to stack 3 elite scorers and expect them to score as the same rates the used to.

the only reason lebron has not had dynasties is bc of his competition. the warriors are too good.

also injuries. wade fell apart in his final season. irving and love both missed the 2015 finals.

transport lebrons teams to a different era and they dynasty.

jordan 3-peats with heat from 2011-2013.. thats a dynasty.. so that shuts you down right there..

keep in mind that lebron needed a 7th game and ray's miracle in 2013 because he got 17, 18, and 17 in games 1-3.. jordan would've plyed much better early and not need a 7th game


in 2014, the spurs didn't have more talent, so their record margin of victory reflects the gap in teamwork between the 2 teams..

indeed, lebron's stats were achieved while his team had the biggest teamwork deficit ever in a finals.. therefore, his stats can be criticized as "empty", and his style of play as self-serving..

otoh, jordan's heat would have better teamwork and defense, so a victory was possible - jordan won 2 rings with his 2nd option getting 15 ppg on 34% and 41% (96 and 98 finals), because of great teamwork and defense



lebron can't have dynasties because his style prevents dynasty teamwork..

specifically, every key teammate saw their assists go down alongside lebron, so the team ranks low in assists and teamwork, and needs super-team talent to win

indeed, lebron must team-hop for super team talent, because his teams aren't capable of developing great teamwork.


he beat them and that's great.. but the talent levels were comparable

and Jordan's 36/7/8 in 1991-1993 Finals > Lebron's 30/11/9 in 16' finals:

Lebron needed a 7th game because he only averaged 24 ppg and 6 turnovers thru 4 games (3-1 deficit), and then 36 ppg and 3 turnovers in the final 3 games.. But if he averaged 36 ppg and 3 turnovers for the ENTIRE SERIES like Jordan did in 1991-1993 Finals, then he wouldn't need a 7th game... MJ was more dominant.

furthermore, Jordan scored 16 ppg more than Pippen, compared to 2 ppg for lebron, so jordan faced greater defensive attention.. he also made all the game-winning plays, whereas Kyrie made several for lebron
.

hahahaha

My god I don't know why I respond to you. You're beyond ridiculous.

Because, absolutely amazingly, they keep getting stupider. Just when you think the undersea plateau has been reached you discover that are new things to be found below.

i dont get this argument. why doesnt the goat have his own dynasty then? all arguable goats of team sports had a dynasty. hell even the showtime lakers and boston celtics at the time were considered dynasties and they faced each other mulitple times in finals and both won a good clip.

is labrons miami heat considered a dynasty? real question. something doesnt add up here. he faced great competition argument is a weak case because goats always face great competition and win. thats why they are considered goat.

2007 Spurs may have been a dynasty, but 2014 wasn't.

So let's look at other sports. Barry bonds is arguably the goat and has no titles. Sometimes goat players don't get lucky with teammates, injuries and situations. Barry was close but despite his dominance it was never enough.

Celtics were born out of a trade with the warriors where they stole Mchale/Parrish for joe Barry Carroll. Lakers had a solid team before they added magic and also got worthy. Lebron he been lucky and unlucky. Lucky he's formed these super teams but unlucky at times with injuries for his teammates especially in the playoffs.

I don't consider the heat a dynasty but they were pretty close the first three years. They could have easily beat the mavs, up two nothing before collapsing and then won two in a row. They might have had chance for more if not for wades age and injuries.

I think we are way too focused with titles when it comes to GoAts especially with basketball. While one player can do a ton, there are goats who are really good without titles. Likewise Jordan until he got a great squad was utterly dominant but it wasn't enough. Imagine another universe where Jordan basically played the exact same way but didn't win all the titles. I'm not sure you could figure out how to judge him. Personally he'd be just as good but his casual fan opinion would be so much worse. Durant knew this. Lebron knew this. Lebron could have a 40 per for 10 years straight but unless he won 6-0, he would never been compared favorably to Jordan.

The core of the team was almost the same sans kawhi. They aren't a traditional dynasty but they are a pats like one.

in what imaginary universe is barry bonds arguable goat?

Bonds has a way better argument for being GOAT than Lebron does

I agree that it is inarguable that Bonds is the GOAT - it is a completely obvious and indisputable fact.

So how am I supposed to make any points when you know nothing about sports. Is jeter the goat in your book because he won a few titles with a stacked squad? He's the modern era goat and it isn't close. Babe has arguments for the pre modern era.

Like trout has equity but again he's on a **** squad. Arod/pujols has equity but obviously fell on their faces late in their career.

The only reason Kobe has goat talk is titles and that's part of the reason I'm not as focused on titles when it comes the argument.

lol at comparing a baseball players effect on title equity vs a basketball. Loool

shocker. labron goat fans are also barry bond goat fans. lol.

im sure you will argue steroids dont affect skill set so they have no bearing on his accomplishments!

I never said they had huge title equity but I wanted to pick a goat level player who never won it all. Again, what do you guys think of trout? What if he stays at this level and never wins titles. Can he be goat? Again, you guys have a ton of trouble seperating team accomplishments with player accomplishments. My analogy with Jordan is he could still be goat and could have gone 2-4 in finals or never gone to one or lost them all but if he had the same rate of dominance it is what it is. Let's say all of jordans stats some how doubled but for some reason he never won it all. Still can't be goat, eh?

I'm not that much of a Barry fan but his stats are off the chart. I'm also not that negative on steroids because it dominated that era. This era could have other issues, who knows. It's silly Barry isn't in the hof though but baseball writers are way too old school.

You lebronobots seem to have issues understanding the effect the GOAT can have on his teammates performance/attitude

INTANGIBLES, but there are plenty of interviews out there of each players respective teammates talking about their star teammate which can give you an idea of each players impact