Those two Shaq-less Laker titles were his most impressive. Still, a team of prime-ish Kobe, Odem, Gasol, Artest, etc. is not your typically 55 win team. That's still pretty stacked ...

However, they did beat a couple of prime Spurs teams (which according to LeBron fans are, basically, unbeatable) so I'll have to give him that.

Harper was never an all-star. Also, his stats didn't tank when he started playing with Jordan. His stats tanked when he went to the Bulls (Jordan was still retired).

Rodman had long-passed being an all-star once he joined Jordan. His stats definitely didn't tank (only a slight drop), though, from where he was with the Spurs. He was also an old man by the time he joined Jordan.

Rodman is only 2 years older than Jordan. He averaged 15 rb a game with the bulls. His points were down, but he wasn't there to score (Jordan was good at that). All star games are stupid and Rodman is probably the best player ever who only made 2 all star games.

Sounds like you're trying to argue with me, but it seems like we agree. Rodman didn't tank when he joined the Bulls. Far from it, in fact.

this thread keeps delivering over and over!

now nash>magic!

moar please!

All the greats like Jordan, Kobe, Shaq adored Phil Jackson.

Shaq said he needed a domineering personality like Phil to set him straight. Phil even got Jordan to buy into a system to pass the ball more.

However, Phil Jackson as a president trying to push "trickle down triangle economics" has been a disaster. Its an ego thing. Mike D'Antoni has changed the NBA completely and Phil can't take it.

That's insane.

Bird over time just becomes more and more underrated, IMO, for odd racial reasons. People simply can't imagine a white guy being so good (the best since are Nash/Nowitzki, and nobody considers them quite true GOAT types). They might be the only 2 white guys to be in the top 25 players in the last 20 years.

Looking at his stats and his highlights though, it's clear Bird was something special. As someone who only started really watching the NBA just before MJ's return from baseball, I totally missed Bird. I always just remembered him as the guy shooting 3's in a warm up jacket. It's great seeing this highlight reel and getting a glimpse of how good he really was. Being the consensus GOAT white basketball player is an interesting thing to be.

Pau Gasol is often underrated too.

After viewing that mixtape...

MJ>Bird>Shaq>Lebronze

Pau, Marc, Kevin love are all pretty good.

The knock against bird has always been longevity. He was clearly a great player but for me, the goat debate must take into account longevity AND peak.


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Bird had a pretty damn good 4 year peak (might be 6 years) but when you compare it to the other all time greats it's not nearly as high as most and also really short. His stats aren't probably as impressive as others due to the amount of talent he had on the Celtics with McHale, Parrish, etc.

Nobody considers Dirk and Nash GOAT type players because they aren't. Has nothing to do with them being white. Bird was awesome and I think he gets proper ranking. The best american born white guy in the modern era isn't going to be underrated because he's white if anything it's going to be the other way around. I mean most people have him top 10 all time and when people do an all-time starting 5 he's often mentioned so I don't see where he's historically underrated at all. I think he's properly rated. It sucked that he started breaking down so early. I think what holds him back from GOAT talk is that his peak just wasn't quite long enough. Awesome player though no doubt.

Rodman thinks he's overrated.

i see this comment on other forums a lot.. surprised to see it here

usage essentially measures shot attempts + turnovers.. that's it.. time of possession has nothing to do with usage

in lebron's case, he's the only non-point guard in the top 25 for time of possession - so he uses a point guard's time of possession.. but unfortunately, his career assist levels aren't elite for a point guard.. not even close tbh.

here's a good example - in the 2015 Finals, Lebron's time of possession was a preposterous 12.0 minutes per game, or 50% higher than the regular season leader John Wall's 8.2 minutes.. Lebron is one of the biggest ball-dominators ever and his presence as a 2nd point guard is redundant and prevents maximum teamwork.

back to usage - jordan's career usage was higher than Lebron's, so jordan shot more, which we all know.. but he shot more WHILE MAINTAINING the same career shooting efficiency as Lebron (both shoot 57% TS in playoffs).. furthermore, shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per possession efficiency, where jordan's was higher (118 ORtg to Lebron's 115)..

btw, that's all anyone can want - for their favorite player to shoot more, while maintaining or even improving efficiency.. and that's what jordan did.

Goat

The 2015 Finals was a massive outlier for Lebron usage and time of possession, and it doesn't even appear time of possession was available when MJ was playing. Yawn.

Lol at using USG against LeBron but forJordan.

i love the "here's a good example" bit, completely typical Lebron series, when he was playing against GS without 2 of his big 3

Great post. You did a good job explaining with numbers what we all can see with our eyes. I think your post also explains why Lebron is really good at leading bad teams, but truly great teams such as gsw would rather have KD than Lebron because great teams generally want the ball to be moving as much as possible and they also have other great players who need to have the ball in their hands.

Here's another good article I found that shows that really good teams rarely have high time of possession PGs and also breaks down curry vs Lebron by minute of possession(curry crushes Lebron).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/briango.../#7304b1ad1a93

LEbron is second in the league in this stat. I don't think LEbron or the o was the issue in the finals, the d sucked really bad. Also it's funny how the editing missed Russell Westbrook and called him Michael Westbrook.

LEbron is second in the league in this stat. I don't think LEbron or the o was the issue in the finals, the d sucked really bad. Also it's funny how the editing missed Russell Westbrook and called him Michael Westbrook.

Pretty sure due to the sheer amount of talent, LEbron replacing kd would have had no difference in the result. Kd chose warriors and LEbron chose the the Cavs. Warriors didn't pick kd over LEbron.

warriors get better if lebron and kd were swapped.

Cavs get worse but don't think gsw get better with LeBron skillset. They def don't decline or anything.

See posts like this just completely tank any shred of credibility you have on the subject and make it blatantly clear you're trolling.