What's worse:

1-9 with lottery cast or 0-12 with prime AD?

1-9 with a cast like the 04' Cavs....

or 0-12 with prime AD and veteran cast?

I don't disagree with you, this isn't an argument against MJ, I also have him number one. Was simply just asking how much impact these advanced stats should have when determining how truly great a player was.

What you're saying is true and increases the magnitude MJ's peak 8 year window of dominance. I feel like this also, more than anything else, signifies the quality of their teammates. Both Kareem in the 70's and Lebron in the 2000's did not have championship caliber rosters in my opinion. I also don't have the stats in front of me, but I'd guess Wilt carried a similar, if not larger scoring load, and Lebron's scoring load was just as high when you factor in assists, which gives a more accurate overall impact on scoring. I'm sure defenses were equally as focused on stopping Lebron or Kareem as they were MJ.

Lastly, MJ did need great scoring help. He didn't win anything until Pippen became an all-star and 20ppg player. This isn't a criticism of MJ (again I have him one), every player in NBA history has needed great scoring/defensive help to win a championship.

The problem with that is pipe only have 4 season of 20ppgs with MJ winning and I’m very generous rounding those 19ppg .

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1994 2nd Round








Other stats must be used to gauge the quality of the stats you mentioned - things like winning, team offensive rank, team assists (ball movement), teammates playing near capacity (near career highs), good fits (no westbrook-lebron fits)... i.e.. people don't realize that bad fits = skill deficit, so good PER with bad fit and subsequent losing deflates the value of the PER or PPG..

In the case of Lebron/Westbrook, the skill deficit is lack of expert jumpshooting skill and instinct to play off teammates, aka off-ball - neither Westbrook or Lebron had these skills to fit with each other.. This isn't a one-off - Lebron reliance on ball-dominance (a lesser version of "luka-ball") has a long list of bad fits with other ball-handlers like Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, and even Wade, IT, Clarkson and many more.




After they both made the 2005 all-star team, Lebron and Zydrunas acquired a HOF coach (Mike Brown) and player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:

05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... No All-D

Jordan would obviously 3-peat with that.. The reason Lebron failed with Hughes is because it was a horrible fit just like Lebron-Westbrook... Hughes cratered alongside Lebron.

Of course it's bball 101 that bad fits = skill deficit.... i.e. spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Lebron, Hughes, Westbrook, or Ingram need great shooters around them and therefore don't fit with each other.

This need for shooters to have good fits and also to provide spacing for drives is a weakness of ball-handlers.. In contrast, expert jumpshooters like Curry and MJ fit great with other ball-handlers while also needing less spacing since they can shoot over defenses as a standard.

Ultimately, the primary reason for Curry and MJ's superior chemistry and winning is because they were elite on-ball AND off-ball, so they fit with any player or system, while Lebron is only elite on-ball, which limits chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching (and therefore winning & team ceiling/Finals record).. We've seen this now for 21 years when we look back on Lebron's career (now effectively finished)... Hindsight is always 20/20.




Jamison is a rare 20k scorer and outplayed Lebron in the 2007 1st Round by averaging 32/10 on 55%... So he's a far superior scorer to Pippen, yet Lebron had him at 3rd option in 2010... So the 2010 Cavs had more scoring options and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. And the Cavs had better defenses back in 2007 too, which was long before Lebron became an all-defensive player, so the Cavs always had more defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls..

fyi - the Bulls only had the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th), which was worse than every ECF and Finals opponent (91' Lakers, 91' Pistons, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks), except the 93' Suns.. Meanwhile, the 09' and 10' Cavs had the #3 and #7 defenses, so they had better defenses and more scoring options.




Finals career

Lebron'......... 28 on 49%
Kyrie............. 28 on 47%
AD................. 25 on 55%
Wade............ 24 on 47%

Jordan........... 34 on 48%
Pippen.......... 19 on 42%


^^^ someone doesn't belong

Lebron had far more scoring help, so he didn't have to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention).

Everyone in history had equal-scoring teammates to attract equal defensive attention - only MJ faced max defensive attention for his entire career (carried scoring load).




In the 93' Finals, both the Bulls and Suns averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORTG, so every ounce of Jordan's 41 was needed... The fact that Pippen averaged 20 on horrific efficiency means nothing - it's horrible scoring help when the 1st option must average 41 and defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).. Btw, we know that Pippen couldn't handle additional load in that series because he shot 46.9 true shooting.

Furthermore, Jordan won with Pippen getting 20, but he also won with Pippen getting much less than 20 on worst-ever efficiency too (see chart above).. People forget that MJ nearly beat the Bad Boys in 1989 but Pippen missed Game 6 and only had 7 points in Game 5.. He essentially missed Games 5 and 6 in 89', and then missed Game 7 in 1990 with the infamous "migraine"... If Pippen had provided 10 points in these games, MJ would've beaten the Bad Boys in 89' and 90' with essentially no help - and when MJ finally started winning from 91-98', that's basically what he was getting from Pippen - the bare minimum such as 15.7 on 34% in the 96' and 98' Finals, or 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, or worst-ever efficiency in the 93' Playoffs & Finals, and also the 96-98' Playoffs & Finals - Pippen was a historic bricklayer and lane-clogger as the picture shows above.

In addition to historic bricklaying and lane-clogging, Pippen had worst-ever 4th quarter and clutch stats, while also having zero big shots in his entire career.. Infact, Kukoc was 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring for the entire 98' Playoffs - he led Pippen in 4th quarter scoring, while also starting over Rodman at PF... (Rodman wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs and averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs).




Everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES.. Accordingly, only MJ was forced to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load)... He did so for every title run, and also every regular season, playoff series and Finals of his career.... Jordan was forced to carry the scoring load because 20 ppg is a low peak capability for a sidekick, which is why Shaq said Pippen wasn't on the scouting report (system player).. Other sidekicks led the team in scoring for playoff runs and took defensive attention away from the 1st option (they dominated), while Pippen never did.

Regarding MJ and Lebron specifically, Lebron never carried weak help over top teams like MJ did, such as losing with 18 on 38% from Mo Williams - this is just one example but Lebron never beat any top 5 SRS or Finals team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while MJ did all the time.. So MJ routinely beat top teams with weak help, while Lebron never did.




Kareem was lottery for many years while being MVP, so we aren't even talking about championship rosters with him - just make the damn playoffs.

Regarding Lebron, nearly every top 20 all-time player had an organic juggernaut by Year 7 such as Curry, Giannis, Jokic, MJ and Lebron - these guys achieved league favorite status with normal or "organic" casts of 1 franchise player and a secondary producer at sidekick..

The difference is that Lebron gave up after Year 7 and teamed up with opposing franchise players thereafter - he achieved a greater roster than the 1 franchise player model roster by teaming up with multiple franchise players to achieve a "super-team" (3 franchise players on 1 team).. Yet he still mostly lost with each cast that he had - he never proved that he could have a dominant team that mostly won each year, regardless of what cast he's given, aka objectively inferior to MJ (6/6) and many others that achieved dominant teams.

But MJ stands alone because he was unbeatable the instant he got 1 star teammate (6 titles in 7 years), while Lebron mostly lost with 2 star teammates (3 titles in 7 years from 11-17').. MJ is essentially punished for winning with the first all-star he ever received and never needing another one, while everyone else in history needed many all-star teammates and still won much less than MJ.




When Pippen finally took over the reigns of the most well-oiled machine ever in 1994, he averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 94' 2nd Round (stats in picture above).

The reality is that opponents no longer circled their calendars or planned what they would tell grandkids before playing the Bulls in 94' - no one gave a crap about playing the Bulls without the GOAT and it was a huge letdown for opponents.. But once the cat was out of the bag and opponents woke up, the "real" Bulls without MJ embarrassed themselves in the 94' Playoffs and were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber in his first full season back..

If MJ never returned, the 3-peat Bulls would've fallen to lottery in 95' or 96', so Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months.. Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, as we saw in 95' with the Bulls.. He was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever, so he isn't a true franchise player that can build a 50-win team from scratch - i.e. imagine removing MJ and "the shot" from the 89' Bulls team and seeing if they become champs by 91'.. So Pippen can't build a team from scratch and he can't have a real 50-win team that can win 50 every year as saw in 95' - Pippen simply isn't a franchise player.




Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron until Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone starting in 2015 onwards:

Playoffs

85-93' Jordan............. 35/7/7 (6.6 apg)
06-14' Lebron............ 28/8/6 (6.4 apg)

In addition to passing less than Jordan for the first half of his chips, Lebron wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half of his chips (no all-defense in his 30's).