Fwiw, people (I remember Magic specifically) were calling MJ the GOAT @ 29. LABRON is 28.

i don't think it's clearly obvious that he's not the goat.

the answer is "maybe someday" to the ******s who want to measure his GOATness by rangz and trophies when he's not done accruing them.

what i do believe is this:

1) taking competition levels into consideration, he clearly just had the best season in NBA history
2) even adjusting for era, it remains arguable that his past season was the best season in NBA history.

Maybe not everybody else wants to measure comparative GOATness through an analysis that strays from ceteris parabus and is also horribly results oriented.

Sure, the way some people project and then call LeBron the GOAT now. People say ******ed **** all the time. But are you suggesting that a large number/% of basketball authorities (players, coaches, GMs, analysts, journalists, uberfans, whoever you want to appeal to) actually considered MJ to be GOAT at 29 if his career ended right there?

why would you designate anybody other than the most intelligent basketball minds as the "authorities"

At the time? Yes, I think plenty would have argued for MJ=GOAT. And, remember, people weren't projecting; MJ retired@29.

Dean, it is clearly obvious. You are wanting.

If LBJ's career ended right now, would he even be in the discussion for GOAT? Any answer other than No is hilarious.

GOAT = peak player + longevity + career, some combination of which can be valued differently by different people. That does include RANGZ as a measurement. But it is not peak only or talent only.

In your post, you seem to be regarding GOAT as single season peak. If that's true, then other names are in the mix as well. But your (1) point is not clear. And even if it were, single-season, or even 3-season peak or whatever is not how most would define GOAT.

I think he's arguing GOAT=Best Player, which is what it should be, imo.

So take your poll of Pop and Haralobob and whoever, and get back to me then. I'm talking about any reasonable usage of GOAT, your single season peak does not appear to be.

He has 4 MVPs by 28. The most MVPS ever is 5, so yes LBJ is in the conversation. Has he already passed MJ, **** no. Does he have a non zero shot? **** yes. Even if he doesn't get 6 titles, he has a shot. Titles aren't the be all and end all in a TEAM sport.

Of course he has a ****ing shot! That's why this conversation is so ******ed! Is he GOAT now? Of course not! Could he be? Of course he could! Any answers other than those are ******ed.

You guys are simply arguing who was a better peak player, and it's close.

Minor FYP.

To the "GOAT = Best Player = single season peak player" people, I pose a question:

If Len Bias (or in the future, WIGGZ) came into the league for 1 year, dazzled everyone with highlights, had a statistical season that clearly surpasses both MJ and LBJ, was MVP, won the title with 4 scrubs, and then retired forevermore to live solely off of hookerz and blow... would he clearly be the GOAT?

The answer to this is the answer to your arguments.

Clearly? Probably not. But if he put up a 35 PER season and made 1st team defense and took the Bobcats to a rang, I'd be fine with people arguing for him as GOAT. If he did it for back to back seasons, and then retired, it's going to be closing in on, or already at, "clearly GOAT".

Using MVP for anything other than a factor towards career achievements is ******ed.

Steve Nash won back-to-back MVP's and was whisper close to a 3rd (barely coming in 2nd). If he had won 3 straight MVP's in 2007, would he have been in the conversation for GOAT?

I love when people post the most basic ****ing thing ever and act all smug like they just blew minds. Well done.

The reality is that there are many people involved in this discussion, and the definition of GOAT will vary throughout. Follow along ffs.

idk why train has 1000+ posts on this subject, this is all that needs to be said

Okay. Most would disagree with you. Your arguments speak for themselves.

No. The GOAT has to consistently do it over a long career. MJ did, Lebron probably will (and is a serious dog to win 6 titles).

I think we need an improvised poll.

If Wiggins comes in and puts up back-to-back 35 PER seasons (both regular season and playoffs) with 1st team defense and rangs with the currently constituted Bobcats in both seasons, and then retires, would you consider him the greatest player of all time?

My vote: yes.

Well, apparently, it wasn't obvious or smug enough, because some people still disagree. So yes, it may very well be blowing some minds here. And in a forum that likes to circle-jerk itself as among the best basketball minds on the planet, better than most GMs, no less.

Of course the definition of GOAT will vary slightly, I explicitly said as much. But is there a roughly consensus idea on what that means? Yes. You are implying that there is no consensus, and any definition is as good as another, which is ******ed. So what is the definition of GOAT in your mind?

Smack yourself

I'll create a thread tomorrow or whenever. Kinda curious on SE's view.

how is it you do not understand my point?

on one hand, you say i shouldn't be cherry-picking stats to show how much worse mj's supporting cast was at 3's, then the next breath you totally agree with me saying the league didn't shoot 3's well back then.

of course the entire league shoots more 3's now - they attempted 50k this year, 30k in 1998.... so how the heck would bron's dribble penetration/pnr game work in a league where guys couldn't hit 3's?

and how is it you cannot understand such a simple concept?

no one is cherry-picking - those stats are obvious. mj's bulls supporting cast couldn't hit 3's anywhere near as good as bron's teams, AND YOU AGREE WITH THIS, so why post a reply at all complaining?

i don't get it.

so bron's style, and ANY style that relies on current 3-pt accuracies would not work - he would have to adjust his game just like dallas.

and so how can lebron be goat when he would not have been able to duplicate mj's success with the same supporting cast?
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are you guys dense?

the bolded is the whole point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

how could lebron's dribble penetration and pnr game, which relies HEAVILY on 3's, work in a league where guys couldn't hit the broadside of a barn?

it wouldn't!!! it would be dallas all over again, but worse!

just based on this post and especially the bolded, should have let me know that these 2013 spurs would not contest the heat in this Finals.

like many other posters, my first instinct was that everything would look so much easier vs the spurs, and sure enough, the heat are making it look easy in the first quarter of game 1.

heat in 5. wade doesn't even matter. spurs are decent, but far from an all-time team. very far.

took the heat 6 minutes to figure out the spurs.

last year i said the spurs were super-overrated and would get beat by someone in the western conference, maybe the clips, maybe the griz, it ended up being the thunder.

they are still overrated. not watching the rest of the series.
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