The Cavs already added Mike Conley -- opps, I mean Larry Hughes.

22/6/4 and a 1st team all-defense the year before going to the Cavs (age 26).

I'm a country that voted for Trump, it us absolutely possible that the majority would think LeBron is the goat.

Doesn't mean they'd be right tho

Alright you take Griffin and I'll take MVP Malone.

I don't remember the Lakers not winning a championship being a one legged Malone's fault. But okay.

Still doesn't change that MVP Malone was better than an older Duncan.

I'm not even sure how this fits in with what you wrote.

I've taken 5 years prior history and 2 years after. A 9 year window. That's a decent sized window of looking how a team is traveling.



Say LeBron doesn't cramp and Miami win both Game 1 and 2 on the road. They probably win the series. It make LeBron better, but then ruins the argument that he didn't take on better teams than MJ. Being that both Utah and SA have almost identical 9 year runs.

Jordan definitely has a higher percentage of Trump supporters than LeBron does in the GOAT debate.

definitely

the refs used to really rig the games for the bulls though. they did it for Kobe as well. cause those teams made them more money. i mean, go back to Bibby fouling Kobes elbow with his chin. Jordan would just get insane tough fouls and Bill Walton would go "blah blah blah" and everyone at home was like "VICTORY"... but James gets literally man handled and refs have never cared.

Why do you keep talking about regular season MVPs, when I'm the one arguing that the Jazz are a regular season team and you're trying to argue that they are not?

They've won without him and Malone didn't win anything anywhere either. Again, the argument seems simplistic but either rings matter or they don't. MJ fans seem to have created this weird narrative where rings and playoff success are reflective of something intrinsic about the players but they don't use this standard when judging other players.

Then why couldn't he win? Or put up even decent stats in the playoffs?

And the fact that they are behind in this artificial window you've created speaks volumes. You're ignoring the competition here which I already mentioned aside from their prior success - playoff success within a given conference is a zero-sum game and the Spurs having to play against other super teams like the Thunder with Durant, the Warriors and the Lakers with Kobe/Gasol/Odom/Bynum/etc means they are not able to have as much success. The Jazz, just like the Bulls, thrived in an expansion era with mostly diluted teams and just one super team in the form of Jordan-led Bulls.

This doesn't take away their previous championships.

When people talk about regular-season teams, what phenomenon do you think this actually describes? Why would some teams underperform in the playoffs and others overperform? It doesn't seem to me that you have a coherent theory here. Also, as a Supersonics fan, I remember those teams (Jazz/Supersonics and other pretenders) weren't that great - it's not just about not winning championships - they just weren't great. It's not just about the record - the Spurs in 2012-2014 were better than the Spurs 2002-2007 who had their greatest stretch of success in that time period because of the Lakers falling apart. It's easy for even the best to go a few years without success (see the Patriots) but the Jazz won absolutely nothing in a weak era despite having a core that played at the same level for a long period together without any health issues. To give Jordan a lot of credit for beating this great team that never won anything is absurd. It would be like saying the Raptors are a potential dynasty if not for Lebron James - well they've done pretty well against everyone else. Hawks/Bulls/Pacers may have had a similar run as the Jazz if not for Lebron.

k

LeBron gets the Shaq treatment, for sure.

or Skip

This argument always intrigued me. Why would they have wanted MJ to win in his final season at the Bulls? Wouldn't it have been better for them to lose, like a passing of the torch thing (similar to Magic losing to MJ)?

They probably did try to rig it but Jordan was too damn good to allow it.

Bron in the other hand put up 8 pts in a finals game to a team starting jj barea.

Now two first ballot hall of famers running the greatest pick and roll the league ever saw is equivalent to the modern day raptors.

Most of the bron discussion is actually contemptuous towards the game and it's stars, and it all begins with the premise that LeFraud holds a candle to the true goat.

Kyrie is starting to come into his own as an elite offensive player and I wouldn't be surprised if he's the leading scorer on the Cavs at 25-27ppg from next season on. Pippen was a pretty good offensive player and a great defender i'll give him that. Kyrie is a really special offensive player. His defense isn't great but there are a long line of one way players in the hall of fame and his team's overall success doesn't rely on him being a great defender. He can play great defense all he wants but if he isn't a difference maker on offense then the Cavs aren't as good. He has ~30ppg scoring ability with high efficiency which is a rarer skill than being a really good defender. Pippen was really good I just think he tends to get overrated a bit overall.

The thread has improved lately. The MJ side, via fidstar, has been pretty good. I like the arguments from the LeBron camp more, but at least there's reasonable discussion now instead of just RINGS or FT%.

With respect to recent discussions:
I think MJ had better complements to his teams than LeBron, although this iteration of the Cavs is an excellent complement for LeBron.
I think their defenses are comparable. Hard to not value that LeBron can guard a lot more players over MJ's amazing defense 1 on 1. I would call it a tie.
With respect to opponent teams, it's pretty clear LeBron has had a tougher road. The Warrios are lightyears ahead of anything MJ faced. The Warriors are Bulls-at-their-peak level. I side on Spurs > Jazz, but I can see how the difference is smaller than it seems. On the other hand, MJ had a tougher road to the Finals. The Knicks, Magic, Pacers had very strong teams. I guess LeBron had to go through strong Pistons, Celtics and Pacers teams (the Pacers from 2012-14 were really good defensively), but they don't seem to be as good as what MJ went through.

The argument that it is inevitable that LeBron will be the goat at the end of his career is not pretty clear to me. If he doesn't win any other title, his position would not improve much from the current position. So if someone doesn't consider him the GOAT now, it seems hard that would change with time.

I completely agree the Warriors is a better team than what MJ faced.

I admit what LeBron did last year (in the Finals) is better an individual performance than what MJ did.

I'm not stupid or blind.

I don't like the MJ supporters that can't recognize a great performance.

I even said back in Feb last year that if you put the Warriors in a time machine and they played the Bulls without any prep in today's rules they would win in 5. Only MJ's GOATness would prevent them from being swept (I assume he would have one of those games that it didn't matter what the other team did). I thought the Warriors would beat them in 6 if it was 90s rules (no prep). It only got interesting if the Bulls were given 12 months to prep.

So, the Warriors are light years ahead of Jazz or whoever. And that only got larger this year.

I remember chuckling to myself (am I crazy?) to think on the first play of the game between the Bulls and Warriors without prep, Paxon or whoever doesn't pick up Curry until he gets to the 3 point line, so Curry pulls up and drops a 3 from 6 feet behind the 3 point line. Pax looks over at the Phil. Phil gives him the "Don't worry, he just made a bad shot" look. Next play, exact same thing happens. Phil calls time out to think about what he's going to do about it.

Warriors are also probably the most equipped to to defend MJ (with Iggy and Thompson). I'm getting off topic...

The truth is if LeBron took matters into his own hands the way he did last year, and didn't use the excuse/crutch of "facilitating" and "getting others involved" and went right at the other team as the best player on the floor in his other finals appearances, we probably aren't having this discussion because he's 5-2 or 6-1 in the championship frame.

As it stands, he has a 3-4 mark with some 8 and 11 point games in the finals, and certainly got outplayed by guys who don't deserve to hold his jock (Marion, Stevenson, 35 year old Bruce Bowen)

You'd have to dig real hard to find Jordan being completely outplayed by someone on the other side who wasn't first ballot.

A warriors team with Durant Curry Draymond and Klay is miles ahead of the Utah Jazz.

This Warriors team held together will make about 5-6 straight finals appearances. They are the GOAT team.

I used to think peak Shaq would easily smash these warriors.... but they are pick and rolling him all day long and raining 3s down on the perimeter.

Jordan had better players around him and that is why is teams are considered some of the GOAT, none of LeBron's teams are considered close to any GOAT lists because his supporting cast isn't as good. IMO it's not a positive or negative to either player.

Just an absurd take. The Bulls are perfect to stop the Warriors, they had amazing length to defend the perimeter, maybe the greatest perimeter defensive team ever.

People were saying that same thing last year and they got beat by Lebron and the Cavs. That Cavs team isn't talked about as a GOAT.

1993 against the Knicks, Starks had MJ's number. MJ had one great game, but was pretty bad for the rest of it.

1995 vs Orlando. Well... we know what happened there.

You're right about the Bulls matching up well. But without prep. Probably not. Like has been mentioned before (by pro LeBron guys). The game has come so far. Offensive movement and defensive schemes are on another level. Handling the number of 3s the Warriors take?

Game 1 is basically a forfeit game for the Bulls working out wtf is going on.

Also if we are talking 96 Bulls. How well do you think the Warriors go with the shorter 3 point line?

In regards to the Cavs. I don't think they were the best team last year. They played the best when it mattered. Which is the important thing, obviously to be the Champions. And they deserve full credit for that. But they weren't a better team than the Warriors.

You know Shaq would avg close to 40pts and 20 reb against this warriors team.

I am just laughing when I read people saying Jordan rodman and pipen could not play defense and loose vs the warriors.

I see , the player today can do it but all the great before could not adjust ,zzzzz

On one side we say LeBron has a weaker team then Jordan and they did beat the warrior but somehow , with a better team surrounding Jordan, they couldn't beat the warriors .

Pure logic right there.

You're not very good at this. If I was arguing for the Jordan side, having your argue along with me would make me consider changing sides. Your posts, and "points", are that bad.