Good writeups, I especially liked the Mascherano one. I think you hit it perfectly.

One thing that's interesting I think about Mascherano is that he was absolutely excellent in the super popular 4-2-3-1 with Alonso next to him and Gerrard ahead of him. This was the standard "Destroyer-passer-creator" midfield that has been proven to work quite well (Spain just won the WC with Busquets/Alonso/Xavi in similar roles).

He's one of the few destroyers so excellent (imo) and with so much range (as you pointed out) though, that you could invert the central midfield pyramid without becoming unbalanced.

With him, You could play

LW ST RW
----ACM---ACM-----
----Mascherano-----

very successfully with less defensive attributes being necessary in the other midfielders. Obviously you couldn't play with Mascherano/Riquelme/Ronaldo and expect balance, but he's the best in the world imo at bringing that.

I really thought Maradona had the right idea with a more offensive 4-3-3 type deal with Mascherano doing the defensive business by himself, but then he insisted on flanking him with Maxi and Di Maria (in surely a deeper role than is ideal) in a 4-3-1-2 or, if you will, diamond midfield, which I didn't like. Not only was it not getting the best players on the field, (and in the case of Di Maria, not using them correctly), but wasn't getting the best out of Mascherano's excellent range.

Now I guess I'm rambling, but here's what I'm trying to get to:

To use Arsenal for an example, Alex Song is a very good CM. Cesc and Nasri are very very good attacking players. In a tough game, lining up like:

---Cesc---Nasri---
------Song------

probably woudln't do the trick, simply because Song is a little slow and doesn't have enough range. So Arsenal has to field a Diaby or someone who is more defensive than Nasri to protect Song, which is a shame because Nasri is a useful player.

Would this work?

---Cesc---Nasri---
----Mascherano--

Well I don't know, and it's hard to say, but I tend to think it may well work. And that's an enormous compliment to Mascherano, as he's perhaps the only player in the world I could say that about.

Ballack at 55 is too high and from what I saw of Chelsea last season I disagree that he was very good, too many times I remember him just being a passenger and not really influencing the game at all. Him 35 places higher ranked than Carrick and Fletcher is too much. Of course I think both Carrick and Fletcher (at least Fletcher) are better than him but I would so I'll let more objective minds figure out that one.

Arshavin is an interesting one and someone I would have a lot of difficulty ranking. He's just so inconsistent (though in his defense some of that at least last year was maybe more to do with Arsenal's injury problems and other external factors out of his control).

Well it's easy to nit pick any list like this, and by the time you get done it so much has changed that there are always criticisms to make. I don't think anyone could possibly make a list that you couldn't say "How could X be so much lower than Y?" or whatever, and have a valid point.

So with that being said, Ballack that much higher than Fletcher is way off imo. For me Fletcher is better right now, but certainly there can't be much of a gap in anyone's mind. Bjorn, I'm assuming if you could redo the list again you wouldn't still have Ballack that much higher than Fletcher would you?

Yeah Ballack too high imo although I've seen less of him than those who watch more Premier League.

..

With him getting overrun vs Gladbach fresh in my mind I did have a pretty bad feeling about Ballack and it's possible he is too high. I wish I'd seen how he did in the win against Dortmund. Almost had to be at least somewhat better?

I'm not quite willing just yet to give up on the idea that he still has more to offer than most of the good defensive midfielders though (even if with his age in mind that it's only a matter of time before he should be much lower - I'll just be surprised if that time is here already) and that his (always underrated I think) overall technical capabilities should still keep him ahead of someone like Fletcher. Who ,since we're on his subject once more, other than the totally obvious Henry I still have a hard time finding people I would now rank him over but it's definitely time to pay closer attention to him, I will say that.

So yeah it is indeed starting to look like Ballack is too high but let's see how much too high exactly. I'll keep some faith in him and hope it's not 40-50 places or something. Though as seen with Henry these things can go very drastic downhill with so many good players around.

Thanks for the interest as always and interesting comment too.

Actually I think what Arsenal has is just the thing that maybe just maybe could have made the Argentina lineup work very well. Take it over the top even.

The ball retention through Fabregas (and others as well to be fair, Nasri the best example, but Denilson for all his faults especially defensively, preventing him you could say from being their passer, will never miss the simple passes) really helps, as logic would suggest, to keep the pressure of what on paper sometimes can look like lineups with too few good defensive players.

Argentina only really had that from Veron and when Messi was dropping deep.

That was probably never going to be enough anyway but when Veron went out with injury and it became the Maxi, Masch, Di Maria midfield there was neither ball retention or almost any good defense besides Mascherano. Even for him that was just an impossible situation when facing good teams.
But on the other hand for a team excellent at keeping the ball, and he is heading straight to the best example of all where even if packed with on paper too many attacking players with a lineup for an example of these

Villa - Messi - Pedro

Iniesta - Masch/Sergio - Xavi

will offer a good balance to work with for the defensive midfielder.

Argentina full of attacking players, against the good teams (and I still think Mexico could/should have knocked them out) had to defend close to half the time. That's just not sustainable. While for Barcelona it's obviously much less.

For Barcelona it's all about dominating possession. Others like Bayern without that technical brilliance, to take the defensive pressure of, I don't know how many times Van Gaal mentioned this last season, will simply "rest with the ball". Pass the ball around with Van Bommel, Schweini and Lahm being the most important. Not necessarily always creating but like we saw against Manchester United at least not continue to be run over.

I read an interesting interview with Alonso where he said this among other things:

The passer among the other midfield characteristics like destroyer and creator that you mention.

Now I do think he is a little biased and that's only one way among many that a team can be very good. But certainly with the different players (and their great quality) that both Spain and Barca have now, it's a formula that can make other ways of having a good team look quite ordinary.

Bjorn, you continue to amaze me.

He's still not close to 100% fit after his injury so judging him by the Gladbach game would not be fair at all.

Yeah, good post. I think there's little doubt that Mascherano will work at Barca, for while he's not good going forward he's not a bad short passer of the ball. And, like you said, all the options that will be available to him at Barca will make him look an even better passer than he is.

I think those players' tiki-taca system just tend to make DMs look really really good. It's no coincidence that the DM in the last two major tournaments for Spain (Senna in the Euros and then Busquets in the WC) have looked like world beaters. I expect similar from Mascherano.

As for Fletcher, I agree you should pay a little more attention to him, as I think (perhaps controversially) he has become more than just a "defensive midfielder."

It's not that he has fantastic technique or great passing range (although he's not bad in the box and will bang in goals from time to time) but he frequently makes intelligent hard driving runs in support of the wide players and Rooney. This has really been huge for United's attack thus far this season for a couple of reasons. Obviously he gets the ball on those runs occasionally, but even more importantly it opens space (by creating doubt for the defenders) for Rooney/Nani/whoever else is attacking.

The biggest beneficiary by far though has been Scholes. His little run of form to start the season is owed in large part to Fletcher for me. Obviously he does a lot of the defensive work w/o the ball, which is great because if Scholes had to tackle a lot he'd be sent off by the 30th minute of every game!

But also, those driving runs to wide and advanced positions are pulling people out of position and giving Scholes the time and space that he now needs to be effective. So, if it makes sense, Fletcher's biggest contribution offensively is his hard running without the ball. When Scholes has time to get his head up and pick a pass (or a shot from distance) he's still pretty deadly. And that's one of the many things that Fletcher is providing right now.

stak=closet united fan

yeah, Fletcher makes a lot of forward runs, specifically down the right wing. i'm sure he has a few assists from that area (Milan? Liverpool?)

Yes, in addition to what stak said about his running I think Fletcher's other big strength in attack is his crossing often from the right wing which is very good.

Ive never once considered Fletcher to be a DM.

Sounds like Manchester United's Simone Perrotta almost. Though he is not in Fletcher's league physically these days, but much of his quality both ways was also running without the ball. Both central and wide and his forward runs into the box were really good.

But I definitely didn't rate Fletcher on the basis of being a defensive midfielder or he would be much lower. And even called him United's more effective central midfielder going forward. He is rated as a two-way player and what that physicality he brings both ways provides of very good value to his team.

Still, with how good people are in front of him (just about everyone better at anything that involves touching a football I suspect) I still don't see him rising all that much, other than passing veterans on their way down.

Further down anyway than where Fletcher is ranked.

Henry the obvious. Maybe just maybe, Ballack too. Senna perhaps.

Attacking veterans like Totti and Di Natale (sorry Totti for naming him in the same sentence as you) still do too many great things in the final third to be pushed much further down.

I could also have been more consequent and dumped the defenders down a little further but unless Fletcher (since adding fantastic technique or great passing isn't realistic) would really start adding goals, like say 4 or 5 more, like a prime Perrotta you could say, which is reasonable to expect if he is a good attacking player on a top team in a more attack friendly league, then I can't see him go much further (in my book anyway!).

Like I said though, I will look more closely now!

Man United under Ferguson do not really play with either central defensive or attacking midfielders. They never really have. Not in the pure stopper sense or playmaker sense anyway. Some good discussion going on here.

Your comment about everyone above him being better than him (honestly I would not swap him for a single player you have listed above him thus far not even close) at anything involving touching a football speaks volumes for how you have, imo, vastly underrated Fletcher and his role/influence. Football is such an intense game now, everything you do OFF the ball is of vital importance. You seem to accept this when it comes to defensive stoppers like Mascherano however haven't quite given the same benefit of the doubt to someone like Fletcher.

He basically allows everyone else on the team to forego their defensive duties for large periods of the game. He gives his team mates more space to operate in by his off the ball movement than imo, anyone else in the premiership. He drags other central midfields around, out of position and out of shape more than anyone as well. As well as allowing them absolutely no space in which to operate. See what he does to even the absolute top teams such as Arsenal and Chelsea, who's midfielders you no doubt will rank higher, yet Fletcher is usually the one influencing the game most in these battles.

Who has also developed into being able to contribute massively with difficult to track late runs from deep, runs out wide etc to United's attacking play. Him scoring goals is irrelevant. Mascherano doesn't score goals, you haven't moved him down for this. So why would it apply to someone like Fletcher? Who btw does score goals on occassion. 3 or 4 a season at leastm not a terrible contribution. His passing and technique, again a bit of an irrelevance, his passing is accurate for what is required of him. Its not like Mascherano can trap a ball like Bergkamp or pick out a pass like Riquleme.

He is not an attacking player, he is not a defensive player really. He is something altogether different and you seem to mark him down on both fronts. He is not as good defensively as an elite defensive midfielder, not as good going forward as an elite attacking player. So therefore is lower than both? Yet he can be more effective than either when at his most influential. Seems short sighted to me.

Awesome post RaZ. Players like Fletcher get under rated all the time because they are hardly ever on the stat sheet. It's not just players like Fletcher anymore either in todays game. Playmakers and attacking midfielders like Iniesta and Xavi never get the credit they deserve. Rooney's contribution to the team other then goals often goes unnoticed. It's starting to be a more common thing in todays modern game and it's fans and I don't really like it.

Raz, I agree, and I made many of the same points, but I don't think you addressed his point about the people higher being "better than him at anything involving touching a football."

I sort of agree with what he says in terms of technique, passing ability, etc. All the stuff where you are actually touching the ball.

Bjorn says: "All these guys are better than Fletcher on the ball."

Raz: "You underrate him, he's so good off the ball! "

Bjorn: "????"


I tend to agree that Fletcher should be rated higher for his excellent off the ball work, but I can see Bjorn's point about elite attacking players being a rare commodity. In the end it's just one of the byproducts of comparing Casillas, Mascherano, Ferdinand, Maicon, Messi, Xavi, and Torres in the same list.

As for RT's point, yeah I kind of agree about most fans, but I hardly think you could level that accusation against Bjorn. As I remember it, he was Rooney's biggest fan while Rooney was playing second fiddle to Ronaldo, and the prevailing opinion on this site was that Bjorn was vastly overrating Rooney based on his off the ball movement.

Only once he started banging in the goals did everyone else come around.

I am by no means accusing Bjorn of being one of these fans, as he is a god. That would be ridiculous.

RT, who were you before this account? Do you ever log out?

Who was I? What do you mean..... I lurked for like 3 years. Then I finally made one.

asks the guy with 20 ppd

Thats the thing, he rates Rooney extremely highly (I remember that exact discussion it was like me and bjorn and another ManU fan or two vs everyone else who were loling at us thinking Rooney was so good). He rates elite defensive midfielders very highly.

Yet he thinks since everyone above Fletcher is better at everything involving touching a football (which isn't true imo even if it was relevant) he won't be due to move up. This is both contradictory when you look at how he rates the likes of Rooney or Mascherano etc. Also its completely underrating what makes a footballer necessarily 'good'. A footballer could be the best player in the world without ever being much better at anything involving touching a football than Fletcher. If they were the most intelligent player in the world combinbed with his off the ball abilities.

i missed that discussion, but when i said the same things i got a lot of lol's my way.

We all did.