nah, holtby is miles better at finishing and defending

he used to be pretty meh, but made some incredible strides in all aspects of his game on 28th january 2013

My comment was more in reference to this
That epitomizes what we have seen from Holtby so far. "Works his socks off" is an understatement.
Yep, must be it. Can't wait to see Jack Kaka rain in the goals despite his inability to score at all (in part due to his role in the team but also not an efficient shooter).

And Kolo, of course I'm not implying that. I was just speaking about that one particular excerpt that was posted. I'm a bit perplexed because it takes really awful comprehension to draw that conclusion from what I said.

Conflated your comments re: Wilshere/Kaka and your comments re: BR paragraph. (Still think those stats are pretty interesting even if they don't explicitly run counter to your argument.)

Anyways, I do think "vertical drive through the midfield" is a good summation of what Wilshere brings at an elite level (and, not coincidentally, what Arsenal have often lacked especially post-Cesc.)

didn't notice that. Seems like atrocious design for those not to be accessible through the individual player pages as well. But still happy to know they have a couple more years in there.

Yeah there isn't really a stat for "runs ass off" and closing down in the midfield unless there is some quantifiable outcome like an interception or a successful tackle.

Wilshere is obviously very good at driving forward with the ball which is not a common commodity, and he definitely has the skill set to be a lot more adept and clever about it than someone like Dembele, who at surface level is a perfect example of someone who can cut through the midfield.

/facepalm

at the age of 21

thierry henry scored 2 goals in 18 games
messi scored 10 in 28
ronaldo scored 9 in 33
drogba scored 7 in 30
falcao 6 in 26
cesc 3 in 22

Torres 21 in 40 at age 19/20 tho

Yeah, everyone is a little different. There is no stat you can point to from the past that says what the future will be for someone. The fact that some great goalscorers weren't scoring much at a young age doesn't carry any weight for me. And if I was going to look at something like that I would try to find the guys that are closest parallels to Wilshere (CM's, broke through at really young age, etc). Putting someone like Drogba in there is just completely pointless.

My concern with Wilshere scoring is more about his shooting attributes (please don't quote fifa stats or something) than the volume and numbers. But you don't have to score a ton to be a great CM, so it's not necessarily something to worry about. If you are expecting him to be a Kaka type player, then maybe it is. (Kaka coincidentally not being one of the guys you mentioned, looks like 22 in 48 for sao paulo when he was 19 yo).

I think its a lot the style of play, as Bjorn pointed out Wilshere only has 0.3 shots per game, he always looks for pass first, eventually as he matures he will take more chances

Pretty sure linking 2p2 @ rawk is grounds for a permaban

The idea is that each skill has a distinct aging curve, and that pure goalscoring (like plate discipline in baseball or something) is one where players can start out poor and often improve considerably during their career as they add timing, polish, etc.

Look at the evolution of Bale's game, for example. He's a dramatically more threatening goalscorer now than he was when he first broke through. His shots per game went from 1.7 at age 20 to 2.1 at age 21 to 3.8 at 22. In this season, his goalscoring breakthrough, he averages 4.6 shots per game, almost three more than he did at 20. (set pieces but whatever, point still stands.)

In contrast, separate skills (pace/quickness, or power hitting in the baseball analogy) are going to peak early and then fall off, or are gonna be "either you have them, or you don't" types. Bale's dribbles per game over the past four years: 2.0, 2.1, 1.8, 2.1.

There aren't any stats in existence that I feel can support or deny the view around Wilshere's shooting. It is not as simple as increasing shot frequency. Bale is scoring a ton more because he is shooting a ton more and he is shooting a ton more because he is playing as 2nd most attacking player instead of 5/6/7th when he first came into the squad. But I thought he always possessed shooting technique and power to potentially score goals. I don't have a similar view or Wilshere, so I think he is best staying in a deeper role.

No one is going to be convinced to change their overall stance in this discussion, which is perfectly fine. I rate Wilshere less than others (but not poorly). I'm sure I rate other players more highly than other people, as all do from time to time. In this particular case I do not believe that it is because of the Arsenal connection (and I think my views on other Arsenal CM's, past and present, support this to some degree), but it may be in some part due to Englishness, as I feel he got overrated considerably because of that and his breakthrough at the age of 19 years. Or rather he was put on this expected trajectory to greatness from that point and he hasn't been able to keep on that due to injuries and the unrealistic-ness of the expectations.

nobody is saying wilshere WILL turn into a goal-scorer just that he has the potential to do so and it may happen in the near future

your stance was that it is unrealistic because he is barely scoring now but like i showed with a lot of examples he is just coming to that age where all the big talents start(ed) to turn into goal-scorers

OX is not scoring either yet but i expect him to become a monster goal-scorer in 2-3 years due to huge potential in that area

That is not my stance at all though...

Not worthy of much more discussion.

Interested to see the CM's list.

I mean, tons of players with inferior skills have developed stronger shots and a superior range of finishes over their careers. Maybe he just never focuses on that aspect of his game, but that seems like an underdog to happen. I think most players get their overall senior-level game underneath them before really adding goals to that, and given where Wilshere's overall game is it seems fairly unlikely goals won't eventually become a part. Well, no, but that's a really huge part of it. Really? You think it's solely his attacking position resulting in him taking more shots? I guess I disagree pretty strongly; I think Bale has hugely improved his comfort in tight/central spaces and his natural goalscoring instincts and that's the main driver behind the increased shot and goal count. I also think your cause and effect is a little backward in that I think Bale's developments have forced him up the pitch more than that his move up the pitch is the cause of perceived "developments." How do you think Bale would have performed in his current role at 20 or 21 compared to now?

Also, I'm not sure why you're opposed to discussion for its own sake & just tossing these ideas around. "There aren't any stats in existence that can support or deny..." "No one is going to be convinced..." "Not worthy of much more discussion...": I feel like it's been good, fruitful discussion completely independent of whether anyone's mind has been changed about anything. It's not like I'm gonna insist that we continue debating this particular topic, but I guess I'm just higher on the value and worthwhileness of what's been posted so far.

Glen Johnson is more athletic than the others and with his fine skills to go along he can create the most coming forward. It's also a bonus for him that he has become a good performer on both sides. BUT even though he has become an okay 1v1 defender, I think his positioning is very bad still making him a pretty big defensive liability as far as I'm concerned. He causes opponent goals quite simply. Even when going forward, his clear strength, I don't think he is a very intelligent footballer.

I watch as many Liverpool games as possible and I think Johnson has become a little overrated this year. He does have an impressive array of athletic attributes and football skills, but it just doesn't add up to as many results the final third as you might hope. There's no question he can control a Gerrard long ball with ease, then turn the corner and burn the opposing winger or left back. The problem I see over and over again is that he ends up being the last Liverpool player to touch the ball. Sometimes he flys down the flank and launches a cross out of play. Other times he knifes inside onto his left foot and launches a shot out of play (or right into a defender). And it's one thing when Gerrard or another midfielder had deliberately fed it to him to break down the defense. But it's even worse when the ball just finds him amid a sequence if positive passes. Johnson is the place those attractive sequences of passing football go to die. After his teammates have initiated a dangerous-looking foray into scoring territory with quick, incisive, one-and two-touch passes, Johnson pours cement on everything. He controls the ball, turns to his defender, glues his eyes to the guy's chest, and starts dribbling. And then he typically shoots/crosses/gets dispossessed. He's still a dangerous player, because it's a real challenge to stay in front of him or funnel him where the defense wants. And his shot is quite decent- when he can get it on target. He'd probably flat out dominate a lesser league with his explosive pace and athleticism. But in the EPL I don't think he actually *produces* as much as it might appear at a glance.

Daniel Agger is another player who gets a lot of props for his variety of skills and attributes that, in my opinion, aren't employed to a whole lot of effect by his current team. Agger is highly, highly mobile for a CB. He's quite capable of marauding up the seam of the defense like he's Yaya Toure, then unleashing a nasty shot from distance. But those abilities don't fill a void on this current Liverpool side. They're already plenty good at matriculating the ball into the attacking zone, and they certainly don't need to pull their best defender our of position to do it. They also don't need another guy to blast set pieces- especially when many CBs can be very effective targets inside the box on such pieces. Its the same reason i think Bale would be almost wasted at Real Madrid- the lethal dead ball skills hes shown off recently become effectively moot with Ronaldo as a teammate. I love Agger as a player, and I love the abilities he possesses. Much like Johnson I think Agger could dominate lesser competition and carry a team in a lesser league (or perhaps an EPL team in another era). But he's at Liverpool, in the 2013 EPL.

Those paragraphs probably make it sound like I think Agger and Johnson are a waste, and that's far too strong. They're both solid first-choice contributors to a decent side. But I do believe that the actual results that their elite offensive skills yield for this particular team fall short of making up for the defensive lapses both players are guilty of.

BUMP.

Why the hell has this glorious thread petered out??

It hasn't, Björn just updates it when he has time and that often means we have several days between new stuff.

Plus it's a lot of work and is worth the wait if its done as good as bjorn.

Yeah don't really have time today either unfortunately but either tomorrow or some time Monday should be good.

Thanks for all the interest and comments!

I landed on top 125 midfielders and will be going for the next unknown number of hours. We'll see how long I last. Not sure if I'm gonna comment on literally everyone either, but we'll see...

This will the list with the most difference in order compared to the overall 300 list. There are so many who does more positions or roles affecting things. On this list there will even be a few guys who currently more than anything play wingback or fullback but who I still don't think are quite ex-midfielders enough not to be also included here. They and other versatile guys (including players also on the attacking mid list) won't necessarily be behind overall all the midfielders they'll be behind here.

Again many different roles, if we apply the classic numbers then the 6 and 8 in 4-2-3-1. Mostly all three midfielders in 4-3-3 from defensive anchormen, destroyers, passing distributors, deep-lying playmakers to two-way all-rounders. Both central midfielders in 4-4-2s will of course be here too.

One thing I'm still not sure about if I should include Fabregas here. He feels more removed from this, compared to attacking-mid, than ever, but he still has so many touches and passes that he is back on this list.

Iniesta, even in a period where he played far more "wing", it was definitely a mistake not to include the last time, so he is also here.

In England they've always raved about Samba. Many fans too and I'm not saying they're wrong especially since I wasn't paying close attention to him at Blackburn and him getting considered very good was something that snuck up on me badly and I've never really seen him as anything else than a very strong solid box defender, which isn't a bad thing but with the direction my rankings are taking, unless his level remains very very high doing that, I'd need to see some mobility and/or technique to give him a good ranking.

I watched one of his first games back from Anzhi where he could barely move but hopefully that was just lack of fitness.

Dunno if Hoilett has been injured at various times but I remember in another thread talking about how I thought the reaction to the nightmare (and imo somewhat fluky) bad start against Swansea at home made everything worse. All of Mackie, Hoilett and Taarabt I remember showing good things in that game, doing exactly what they're good at and all I think saw bench time in the following weeks. Mackie and Taarabt (the quickest) got back into things and started playing well while Hoilett seems to have never recovered and almost no matter what I just can't like an older declining same type of player Wright Phillips getting played over Hoilett (and what they had invested in him) one season removed from widely being recognized as having had one of the better attacking season's in the league. Statistically he lead the entire league in dribbles per game but I will also say that at times for Blackburn there were periods where he played more for himself (and the big fat contract he would land) than the team. A team fighting for their lives, so that's not exactly a great sign, and maybe one explanation for his season at QPR.

Top 125 Midfielders in the World

125 Ruben Pardo- Spain - Real Sociedad
124 Morgan Schneiderlin - France - Southampton
123 Juraj Kucka - Slovakia - Genoa
122 Ki Sung-Yueng - South Korea - Swansea
121 Ryan Giggs - Wales - Manchester United
120 60 Gareth Barry - England - Manchester City
119 Sebastian Kehl - Germany - Dortmund
118 Benoit Cheyrou - France - Marseille
117 Steven Defour - Belgium - Porto
116 Rio Mavuba - France - Lille
115 Manuel Fernandes - Portugal - Besiktas
114 Enzo Perez - Argentina - Benfica
113 Kevin Constant - France - Milan
112 Antonio Candreva - Italy - Lazio
111 Hugo Viana - Portugal - Braga
110 Sebastian Rode - Germany - Frankfurt
109 Hector Herrera - Mexico - Pachuca
108 Fernando Gago - Argentina - Valencia/Velez Sarsfield
107 Esteban Granero - Spain - QPR
106 Mohamed Diamé - Senegal - West Ham
105 Roman Neustädter - Germany - Schalke
104 Nemanja Matic - Serbia - Benfica
103 Michael Bradley - USA - Roma
102 Romulo - Brazil - Spartak Moscow
101 Leon Osman - England - Everton

So that's making my way quickly to the top 100...

There are many ways to order all these. There are good seasons, bad seasons and relative break-through seasons here. So much deciding will be form.

Neustädter, also because he had a season last year where he should have been included, I had at a better ranking than this for some time but now he looks pretty ordinary again and a less experienced Matic, where everything about playing central midfielder is suddenly clicking, storms ahead.

Osman also had a better ranking not long ago, now even this looks to generous tbh. There are certainly people behind not only more talented but also doing more currently. On the other hand maybe this is too harsh on Barry who almost crashes out.

But I should talk about the 125 spot. There are many players I could have put there and many will have a case over Ruben Pardo who is still behind some solid midfielders at Sociedad. It came down to either a young favorite Pardo or an old favorite in Zoltan Gera who's all-round contributions have been good for a long time now. Pardo is just special though. I remember him earlier as a more attacking midfielder and it was clear he had both vision and finesse. Now he plays further back and is showing clear deep-lying playmaker potential with great reading of the game and skilled passing. Unfortunately for the time being, it doesn't seem like Sociedad always has room for that. He does turnaround games for them though and the future is his. It's vain but I like the perspectives of including him already.

I will be heartbroken if Southampton goes down. Love their coach, their style and more and more of their players. Schneiderlin who has a lot of U-caps for France is doing a great job in midfield for them.

Ki Sung-Yueng was up and down for much of the time in this period. It's harsh I include him and not Britton who in many ways is still Swansea's best and most important midfield performer, but Ki is finding consistency just in time and just has so many tools, technical (range of passing) and even physical. I think he just needed to find his feet in the Premier League.

Some guessing involved with Sebastian Rode, but I did manage to see him after word spread that he is someone having a break-through season and I remember being impressed with his all-round midfield performance that his stats also indicate. My Bundesliga viewing always picks up after their winter-break where I've kind of seen what there is to be seen in my "main leagues" so if I continue to like what I see with a bigger sample, he is someone I could see make a huge jump.

It's on