fwiw, Rooney's set pieces pretty significantly distort his scorepoint stats in the PL (no idea about CL). Out of his 10 goals and 9 assists in 22 apps (1846 minutes), he has 3 direct free-kick goals, 1 penalty, and 3 assists off free kicks. I think the majority of this is variance. I'd also guess his set piece duties distort his key passes to an extent as well.

Agree with your eyetest, and would go further. United are (well, were as of a few weeks ago, but can't see it having changed) 20th in the league at % of attacks that go through the center. We've all seen the Moyes heatmaps, and the pass charts that show Rooney basically never passes to Van Persie. And, obviously, the amazingly consistent lack of cohesion and threat United's attack has presented this season, especially when compared to their personnel.

So 6g 6a in ~21 90s from open play from the creative hub of an utterly misfiring attack that's been completely constructed around him. Hard for me to see how Rooney is >Costa, >Higuain, >Benzema, and >Falcao. If he still can play the lone striker role with consistency, that mitigates some of the concerns, but it's been so long since he's done that. Does he still have it in him to consistently duel with CBs, run the channels, etc? Does he want to?

07 11 14 Neymar - Brazil - Santos/Barcelona

Neymar made it all the way to number 3 on my attacking midfielder/winger list which is the more telling reflection on him than ranking him here among the strikers which is a little tricky since Neymar the striker is not really something that's been unleashed in Europe.

Even when playing the similar wide position for Brazil or his old club Santos and being a supreme scoring threat at that, undoubtedly the major one on his teams, nowadays instead it's playing for Barcelona with none other than Messi who is (something we'll get to but why not "spoil" it already) more and more a uniquely great number 9 than the Guardiola-era revolutionary great false number 9. It's quite different for Neymar and it's still early days.

But again even in this situation and still finding his feet fully in this new environment there is so much individual decisiveness oozing from Neymar that even here on this list this placing feels like the minimum and the only thing holding him back (besides Messi heh) is even more striker or goalscoring pedigree in Europe. Something that's only a matter of time.

He even has an argument for being possibly the hardest attacker for opponents to fully control and contain. His dribble and foul rates speak for themselves. They are through the roof both in Spain and in the Champions League. His incredible burst of pure speedy movement while in impressive/explosive control of his body (that's become stronger and stronger) while having the ability to do all kinds of magic with the ball glued to his feet in the narrowest of spaces to the more wide open, makes him a nightmare matchup for defenders.

His teamwork has been improving for a while and will probably become even better at Barcelona, especially on-ball where he is already a sound decision-maker, while off-ball at least for Brazil he is also an excellent scoring threat while defensively he can be a very aggressive part of the pressing (or fouling) game.

It's also great that it isn't just when it comes pacy dribbling or flair scoring that he is decisive, Neymar is a very skilled passer as well and fully capable of excellent playmaking of the highest difficulty in the final third.

06 09 06 Sergio Aguero - Argentina - Manchester City
05 04 05 Robin Van Persie - Netherlands - Manchester United

Aguero was the hardest player inside the top 10 to place this time around. He obviously has a case for one place higher also beating RvP, which we'll get to, but I don't think lower is something totally out of the question either, even if, with his fantastic striker-form and record keeping him ahead of Neymar at least on this particular list makes good sense.

When it comes to exploding and beating people with the ball at his feet in tight areas in and around the box to create individually only Messi and Suarez have an argument over Aguero and Suarez doesn't have Aguero's ball control and lower body balance. Aguero is that talented and there is a reason it wasn't even a laughing matter when early on for Atletico Madrid he was a sensible Messi comparison.

Now it relatively quickly became clear that he didn't have Messi's overall game and his actions also became more and centered around the box, but when it comes to low center of gravity power-balance, pace and skill there was a likeness.

Unfortunately for Aguero he is always prevented from reaching the very top by injury problems that even if they don't keep him completely out for very long periods at a time still affect his form for longer periods or worse even, more or less ruining whole seasons. Not that he is ever truly bad but simply significantly off compared to his very best. It happened in Spain and it happened last season for Manchester City. Hopefully it won't happen rest of the way in this one.

The hamstring seems to be the main problem and also one of those annoying things that, unless I'm wrong (I'm definitely no specialist) will always keep coming back unless (potentially) very carefully expertly handled which even though it's not reflected in the number of games that he plays, I would still assume to be the case outside the pitch.

He's kind of become Romario on steriods. Maybe not quite the natural born finisher compared to the Brazilian but incredibly explosive and skilled in the box both when it comes to ball control and impact finishing.

Aguero in the periods where he is at his very decisive best is also even better than Van Persie but I'm electing to not throw history completely out of the window here and have Van Persie, expertly decisive in his own right and the more textbook lone striker who does everything you can ask for in terms of high level striker on and off ball work, staying ahead of Aguero.

Excellent technician with his brilliant touches and ball-striking, especially his left-foot of course while the right-foot will have some misses it's still part of his strength and challenge for defenders that he can set up and be set up effectively both ways.

Off-ball, and I'm repeating myself, he's become a better lone-striker than I ever imagined and is great at winning the space that he needs to be dangerous.

Man I don't know if I'll finish tonight after all. Getting tired already!

Also wondering right now if this top 4 here will also be the top 4 on the overall ranking Not many candidates from other positions (even with some new developments among the midfielders) to disrupt that. Some yes, but not many. The goalscorers kind of rule the world right now.

Aguero > RVP

04 03 04 Zlatan Ibrahimovic - Sweden - PSG
03 06 11 Luis Suarez - Uruguay - Liverpool

Well, both of these are absolutely amazing this season. In a way I should go with the player who has been undeniable world class for a very long time now and has always been ranked better than the Uruguayan. There is an even argument that Zlatan Ibrahimovic is in fact better than ever, certainly not significantly worse than his younger self, so you could say that it's been up to others to raise their game to almost absurd levels and I don't think there is any denying that's what Suarez has done. I choose to reward him!

Suarez has also a run a little catastrophic with these lists in the past, though by his own doing it needs to said, usually he has been in the middle of or just removed from some longer ban hurting his ranking.

When it comes to Zlatan there is actually some new developments in his game. Well kind of, because for Sweden it's something he's done many times over the years, that is receiving/collecting the ball more deep, through central midfield to attacking midfield, wide is nothing new, in a sound tactical attempt to have his genius as much involved as possible.

In Italy he was very much the target-man final third playmaker with role-players making runs in his presence with outdueled opposing defenders often on his back scrambling to keep up with his physique and technique, now when he is also more involved further back it helps open things up even better for various quality players in the PSG midfield and attack, both he and the team becomes harder to contain.

Other than that it's nothing new but still amazing. Size, power both in body, maintaining balance, his unbelievable impact-ball-striking with both feet really, both also capable of flair and finesse and let's not forget his strong sprinting where his pace remains. Those things combined with his lofty lofty skill level and unique inspiration seeing and doing the unexpected the most difficult things with the ball. And all of it can be creating for himself or being a unique playmaker for others.

Suarez then.

He is the most fanatic "want it more" player that we have and he puts that obsession into seemingly every run, every pass, every shot, every dribble heck probably every single breath that he takes during the 90 minutes.

The last striker ranking was a year ago and even then he was the player who created the most chances in England. Currently he is tied with David Silva (they're also tied for most successful through-balls) who takes a lot more set-pieces. There is also a big chances created stat where he leads with 17 and of course his 10 assists is league best AND he is the top scorer with 24 goals in 23 games. Basically Suarez WIM and Suarez skill currently destroys all stats you can think of from whoscoredpoints to traditionellen scorepoints to all things opta!

Very pacy, strong and relentless both on and off ball making him extremely difficult to control. With the ball he has the drive and bag of tricks to pretty much always create the final tihrd pass or shot that he wants and off ball he is both very good collecting the ball deep or wide to instigate individual or collective attacks or (though less when playing with Sturridge) make more typical striker sprints at the shoulders of defenders.

Especially with Suarez combination of tenacious work-rate and unstoppable chance creating he is actually one of the few threats to overtake even a historic close to perfect goal-scoring machine like Ronaldo (Messi is just too excellent a playmaker and dribbler operating with the kind of technique that Suarez just doesn't have), but only I think if the Suarez goal-show somehow continues at this rate or very similar for an extended period (demands are tough at the top) and that doesn't seem too likely/sustainable, but right now he is at an amazing place where he is a serious threat no matter where he has the ball.

I'll see if I can come up with anything new about the top 2 tomorrow. Then the plan is a turbo version of the midfielders.

With RVP, you can't ignore that the ~18 month period where he was a top 10 player in the world because he was healthy was an aberration.

Suarez not #1???

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/46...6/index11.html

I thought he was widely considered the greatest player to ever lace them up

RvP has been injured for most of this season and will no doubt effect peoples views of him. Fully fit RVP edges it.

Think Aguero definitely was making the jump this year to where his creative dynamism and pace would finally produce the output his talent suggests (not that his output was poor before). (I'm sure everyone's aware of them, but just to note Aguero's numbers when he's played -- 20 starts, 2 sub appearances, 21 goals and 7 assists between the CL and the PL, and in a below-average number of minutes since Pelligrini frequently rotates strikers late in games.) Moot if he can't stay healthy, though. Anyways, I'd still have that as enough to jump RvP considering his non-starter of a season, though I understand not weighting this one much due to lol Moyes. But, yeah, you mention it but he truly has been at a sick level when healthy this season; I have it higher than Van Persie's reached in his career.

As usual it's very close between these players and it's hard to argue against the likes of Aguero and Diego Costa at the moment. They've been brilliant.

I did use to count RvP's health against him and maybe that's right around the corner once again but this time around in that particular brought up raw matchup vs Aguero I've simply weighed that RvP has played a lot more the during "his run" the last couple of seasons, 3334 and 3123 minutes in the league vs Aguero at 2598 and 1948 and of course just how that (hamstring) weakness resulted in Aguero seriously struggling through those limited minutes while RvP seemingly removed from his weakness you could say was the overwhelming talisman IMO leading Man U to the title.

I also weigh RvP's more complete number 9 play and how I perceive that helps his teams (while Aguero making his teams much better has sometimes been doubtful) which I think Aguero has to be at his decisive best to better which I know he has this season but I'd like to see if he can keep it up longer and until he does still give credit to Van Persie for his amazing 12/13 but 11/12 as well for that matter.

But yeah like I've already acknowledged it's tough to hold someone back who does attacking things you only see from Messi basically. It's why he even has a chance so quickly to go past the rvp-mvp of last season.

About Costa I did sell him a little short in that writeup. He is such a strong sprinter with the power to do it all game. Defensively his pressing is excellent. Offensively how he, and the team it needs to be said, manages to create close intense duel after duel with Costa battling defenders putting them (and the ref) to the very physical test again and again where it seems to be threatening a crazy percentage of the time, with only possible scenarios of a foul on Costa, foul on the defender, big chance for Costa or more or less desperate clearance from defender rinse repeat inviting pressure, Atletico in control offensively and defensively.

It's just a basic skill issue having him where he is. His ball control is good complemented by his physicality. Basic passing very solid but I think that's pretty much it. The players above him I just think are a lot more skilled. So are others I guess in various places on the list and he's jumped those and closed the gap to the biggest names very quickly, he is undoubtedly one of the players of the season but, being conservative once again I guess, I'm not quite willing to name him a definitively better footballer than the likes of Tevez, Rooney, Falcao, Neymar, Lewandowski, Cavani and Higuain.

02 02 02 Cristiano Ronaldo - Portugal - Real Madrid

From the last time:

Not sure there is much to add to that. I didn't mention the two-footedness and how that plays in. This season it's actually pretty onesided the stronger right-foot where he scores but the left usually has been getting it's fair share too and of course he is a great leaper into the air able to create a lot of power with his dangerous headers.

I should mention that it's not all physical making all those sprints and being dangerous wherever he is open, he has predatory striker intelligence and outstanding anticipation that few defenders can keep up with.

Then there is the well known hunger both on the pitch and outside it, driven to become the best and making all those physical and technical improvements previous years to reach where he is today.

He has a new coach and Real Madrid isn't quite the same. He's lost one major contributing playmaker in Özil but on the other hand there are now 3 midfielders who can all get the ball forward whether through great passing or running.

With Higuain gone, Benzema (despite having haters among the fans) is the clear number one striker and he's always been very sacrificing and a great complement to Ronaldo.

Then there is, maybe or maybe not, the most expensive player in the world Bale but you don't have to watch very long too see that this is definitely not a new rival alpha-male in town ready to leave some overshadowing mark but rather someone seemingly in awe of Ronaldo trying not to be threatening to his undisputed position at all.

One thing I've noticed though is (and heard from someone visiting Real Madrid training) that they're very much trying for him to be a right-sided forward, more forward-Ronaldo-style than the former winger-Bale, and have him make plenty of off-ball runs to passes ahead of him rather than him getting the ball at his feet. He is definitely scoring but also a very willing passer and worker for the more supreme goal-machine Ronaldo.

Can't wait to see who #1 is!

That picture is still so great.

5-1 is in correct order imo

(am assuming nicky bendtner aka the B52 is #1)

3. Messi
2. Suarez
1. C.Ronaldo

Imo

ronaldo's alphaness is just off the charts even taking into account the handbag

01 01 01 Lionel Messi - Argentina - Barcelona

From the last time:

Still the best ever!

But as I mentioned earlier and re-reading last year's thoughts it seems the picture was already being painted, Messi has gone away from the revolutionary Guardiola-era great false-9 to much more of an all time great unique number 9. Hopefully that makes sense.

A unique number 9 in the sense that no one has quite had the above mentioned skills and that he is such an excellent playmaker on top of that. So great poacher and great old-school number 10 skills rolled into one miraculous player. It's a beautiful thing.

I'm actually interested if Argentina will still have him go enganche, think not least Maradona, where Messi during his false-9 Barcelona period put in some very underrated fantastic performances for a national team that unfortunately never got it quite right, but what about now where for his club team he is less involved than before (his touches have been going down) and defensive contributions are well and truly gone and he seems most comfortable being "just" number 9.

I did see some Argentina games in qualification but also kind of drawing a blank right now how they went. Both Aguero and Higuain started plenty of games though so it's safe to say that Messi's role is different there and it's not like it doesn't make sense to make room for more of your best players. We'll see how it goes. The best player ever lifting the World Cup trophy is definitely one of the major things that I could see myself rooting for.

Might as well get the midfielders going (probably big chunks at a time) but can't believe I'm being delayed right now trying to find room for Ton Huddlestone who is currently at 151.

Bjorn, assuming messi continues playing at his current slightly disappointing level, what level does the ballon dor holder have to play at to surpass him?

Don't think Ronaldo can do more, even if leading Madrid to league and/or CL glory which would be about time, would certainly help so it's Messi who will have to do less and less.

When it comes to their core characteristics for me it's settled in stone that Messi is the more amazing player. Those skills would have to seriously decline I guess in order for less and less to actually materialize.

But yeah if Ronaldo began to dribble like Messi in both narrow and larger spaces, then also became an amazing playmaker to add to his goalscoring. A great creative passer with instant vision for teammates both in finesse combinations and with perfect through-balls splitting defenses where Messi year after is one of the leaders in Europe.

That would help!

Since Messi these days doesn't really team-defend much anymore and in a way has sunk to Ronaldo's level when it comes to that, I guess that would be the most unsexy area where Ronaldo now could have one over his rival, but yeah it's not exactly the most likely thing to happen.

Anyway, not unhappy to have my mind removed from Tom Huddlestone.

"Current"

20 scorepoints this year in 14 matches (2 of them off the bench).

Yet

"Slightly disappointing"

This pretty much sums up how high he has set the bar. :-)

Here we go. Large piece.

The end of 2012/13 - Mid-2013/14 Top 150 Midfielders

150 Mehmet Topal - Turkey - Fenerbahce
149 Tom Huddlestone - England - Tottenham/Hull
148 Mark Noble - England - West Ham
147 David Zurutuza - Spain - Real Sociedad
146 121 Sebastian Kehl - Germany - Dortmund
145 82 Simon Rolfes - Germany - Bayer Leverkusen
144 Manuel Iturra - Chile - Malaga/Granada
143 Leon Britton - England - Swansea
142 Allan - Brazil – Udinese
141 Andrea Poli - Italy - Sampdoria/Milan
140 114 Enzo Perez - Argentina - Benfica
139 102 Romulo - Brazil - Spartak Moscow
138 105 Roman Neustädter - Germany - Schalke
137 Stefan Reinartz - Germany - Bayer Leverkusen
136 124 Ki Sung-Yueng - South Korea - Swansea/Sunderland
135 NR 78 Granit Xhaka - Switzerland - Borussia Mönchengladbach
134 Josuha Guilavogui - France - Saint-Étienne/Atletico Madrid
133 Phil Jones - England - Manchester United
132 101 Leon Osman - England - Everton
131 115 Manuel Fernandes - Portugal - Besiktas
130 109 Hector Herrera - Mexico - Pachuca/FC Porto
129 William Carvalho - Portugal - Sporting Lissabon
128 125 Ruben Pardo- Spain - Real Sociedad
127 Mateo Kovacic - Serbia - Inter
126 NR 77 Alberto Aquilani - Italy - Fiorentina
125 96 Tino Costa - Argentina - Valencia/Spartak Moscow
124 59 Jordy Clasie - Netherlands - Feyenoord
123 Rodrigo Brana - Argentina - Estudiantes/Qilmes
122 91 Victor Wanyama - Kenya - Celtic/Southampton
121 99 Jean - Brazil - Fluminense
120 72 74 Tom Cleverley - England - Manchester United
119 Blerim Dzemali - Switzerland - Napoli
118 64 Moussa Sissoko - France - Newcastle
117 73 68 Kwadwo Asamoah - Ghana – Juventus
116 Jorginho Frello - Brazil - Verona/Napoli
115 Roberto Trashorras - Spain - Rayo Vallecano
114 Geoffrey Kondogbia - France - Sevilla/Monaco
113 68 48 Marvin Martin - France - Lille
112 116 Rio Mavuba - France - Lille
111 Leroy Fer - Netherlands - Norwich
110 Pedro Mba Obiang - Spain - Sampdoria
109 61 54 Javi García - Spain - Manchester City
108 81 51 Raul Meirelles - Portugal - Fenerbahce
107 97 Joe Allen – Wales – Liverpool
106 95 58 James Milner - England - Manchester City
105 108 Fernando Gago - Argentina - Velez Sarsfield/Boca Juniors
104 89 Lucas Biglia - Argentina - Anderlecht/Lazio
103 86 61 Chiek Tiote - Ivory Coast - Newcastle
102 85 81 Felipe Melo - Brazil - Galatasaray
101 103 Michael Bradley - USA - Roma/Toronto FC
100 NR 65 Jon Obi Mikel - Nigeria - Chelsea

Random things that comes to mind:

Aquilani sucks. What a feeble weakling. He annoys me. Don't take him to the World Cup.

Hector Herrera is now playing and looking pretty damn good in the way that seems he's been well schooled by Porto (totally different but I feel like mentioning it still, in the way they couldn't do with Iturbe). Potential midfield animal, in a good way.

William Carvalho I've seen too little of to even mention (I mostly remember someone looking completely out of place when it came to strength, size and level of ease) but apparently he is one of the best players this season in Portugal, very promising and in national team contention for the World Cup in central midfield. One problem for him, and others, but not for Portugal overall, is that Porto midfield stalwart and later to come on this list Fernando Reges is very close to be available as a Portuguese. That would be some reinforcement over the already much tried and tested.

Pedro Mba Obiang I like very much. Physical attributes are well in place and he just seems very intelligent with his reading of the game in midfield and takes well advantage of it with his passing.

Phil Jones is very strong for a very long time which is enough to land him somewhere on these lists but also limited and clumsy enough to be danger both to himself and his surroundings.





While also very strong Wanyama in many ways did look like a work in progress whenever he had the ball early on for Southampton there is a solid argument that defensively they were definitely better with him on the team. Different and kind of less fun, but better. Then he got injured and is yet to win back his starting place.

Tom Huddlestone is nice when he connects with the ball.

Mark Noble is a smart football player.

Manuel Iturra is a defensive midfield workhorse of almost Matuidi-proportions just not without the same physical tools so I dunno he might die someday trying.

Inter coach Walter Mazzarri has his qualities but is terrible for young players so one of the most talented young midfielders Mateo Kovacic barely plays.

Leroy Fer seems more than good enough for a better club but current proceedings where he really establishes a lot of responsibility through his quality, compared to the rest, must be good for his development.

Had high hopes for Lucas Biglia for Lazio. His Anderlecht work had even made him an Argentina candidate over various talented underachievers (think Gago, Banega etc) but he's been a flop in Serie A so far.

Maybe too harsh on unreliables Tiote and Melo. The latter especially since you can't fault his all-round midfield displays in the Champions League. Very talented guy overall and maybe it's time to give him more of a pass for all the grave meltdowns that happened in the past. At least until it happens again...

yea they were going on about how lacklustre messi looks these days in the most recent barca vs sacrifical lamb game, then when he scored the free kick they said 'and messi has now scored at least one goal in his last 7 games' or something like that


messi goat