2012/13 Mid-season Top 50 central defenders

A big part of this ordering has been deciding what defenders can best assist a team reaching a high level and at some point I fully realized that a lot of that has actually been decided by my other rankings. Who the best midfielders are and etc.

If you think Xavi, Iniesta, Alonso, Pirlo etc, are the best midfielders currently. Technical players. That Cazorla, Özil, Hazard, Götze, Kagawa, Silva, Oscar, Mata, Kroos etc are the best attacking midfielders. That the best attacking midfielders and wings generally are best used with the ball at their feet.

That Messi is the best overall player in the world and that some of the already mentioned are well represented among the notables closest to him.

Then I think the next logical thought is what defenders can contribute to what these best players do. That's what these player's team's are also mostly thinking, so to make their team the best that they can they find defenders with either technical skill, intelligence, mobility or all of it, to move the ball forward in the best way manner for the best players in the world.

Defensively speaking (and them moving the ball in the best way manner for the best players in the world also has big defensive/balance purpose) they can function by moving well in a high defensive line creating balance with those attacking players further forward as a unit, as much as possible creating such conditions that these attacking players won't have to depend on physical capacity tracking back defensively on long runs then come forward again. Instead when this works best the attacking players can continue to attack with their defending, pressing their different zones in spurts supported by a defensive line pushing up making the pitch smaller. I'm not concluding this isn't also draining physically, though I do think it's less so than a lot of box to box, but it lets attacking players attack even more, even psychologically if that's worth anything, but most importantly just by having them closer to the opponent goal more.

This is generally speaking and there will be nuances with different teams and players, despite what's been happening in football for the last 3-4 years there are also still different ways and schools to win, but generally, to conclude here I'm having an increasingly tough time rating defenders who I don't think, or doubt, can do the above very well and if they can't do that ultimately they can't play with the best players in the world or if they do it's with a good chance of making them worse (to whatever degree). How can they really be the best defenders in the world then?

And to follow train of thought IF the other type of defenders were still the best in the world, that the ball-playing mobile type hadn't emerged like it has it just wouldn't be Xavi who was the best midfielder in the world. In interviews I think he has often mentioned how he thought there wasn't room for him at the highest level up through the 2000s, instead it would primarily be those with the most physical capacity who complemented their strong but not so technical defenders the best with great duel-play on clearances or more direct passing and box to box ability.

Not that there is anything wrong with that and such players can still be very good with great value, it's just that this isn't the highest level right now and when I'm looking at my lists it's not who I think are the best players.

Yeah, very interested to see how this list turns out because of this.

It's all relative man. We do have a core that has the potential to be quite good. There is a difference between being quite good and being one of the following guys and interlinking with the others alongside them: Xavi/Iniesta/Messi/Fabregas/Sanchez, Ribery/Kroos/Muller/Robben, Silva/Toure/Aguero, Hazard/Mata/Oscar, Ronaldo/Oezil/Di Maria/Modric/Alonso/etc.

Even though we have amassed a pretty good core, none of them are the type of player to help you show off creativity and quick, clever play. Do you not see the difference between having guys like that and having Sandro, who is an absolute monster, but not going to be a brilliant force going forward, or Lloris who is a gk, or Verts who is a CB, or Dembele who is good both ways but more of a solo dribbler than link up player.

The high quality/high potential players we have are in other areas and for the most part support a much different style of play that is more direct and mechanical than any of the others at the top of this list. This type of play is not flashy and in general isn't going to get appreciated on this list.

Also, sorry for derail of great thread.

Excellent. It will probably also be the most controversial so far but now I've set the scene at least.

I kind of hate everyone right now on the list except the guy who is clearly clearly far and away the best right now, so I don't even think I can muster up much defending of many of the various placings.

So many issues with so many players here.

As far as I'm concerned everything is more than welcome. Things get a little uncomfortable whenever it's just one post by me after another...

Has it been asked in this thread who Bjorn actually is and how he's in a position to produce rankings like these? Genuinely interested.

I think someone asked once, don't remember the answer

The position is for anyone imo though it would be best to be a follower of the sport and in this context that's all I am as well. But I would like it a lot if one or more would do something along those lines (someone could try and produce their own overall rank based on my categories, that's some legwork done already) and the various top 100 or top 50 sometimes done by journalists I'm also always interested in. There has been quite a few recently but when I first started I had trouble finding a single one other than one done by Marcotti.

CBs ranking im definitely very interested in but is for sure the most difficult to assess not only due to the reasons you already mentioned but individual performances from CBs are very hard to analyse and it takes A LOT of games to be able to assess them properly and even then it is heavily influenced by the system they play in and players alongside them(lots of CBs are somewhat "protected" by a rigid system)

Ok quickly some of the more interesting just outside.

There are many just outside the list with good cases here. Wollscheid looks like someone who could become a perfect centreback but just a few too many uncertainties still, the times I've watched him. Not that the list won't be full of such, so maybe he really should be included already.

Marquinhos has lovers of ball-playing defenders everywhere drooling already and naturally Barca rumors are already surfacing but if I don't put Varane higher yet (number 48) I don't think I can the Brazilian who's like an underdeveloped miniature version of him...

I always like Burdisso's defensive instincts. He still seems to be first choice for Argentina which he is far from here. But good defender who can push up and use all his know how deeper.

John Terry fell out. He could barely put a foot right the last time I saw him and his overall movement took centuries.

Rannocchia is having his best season so far and is very classy and elegant. No wonder Nesta is his idol but I'm still too unsure about his mobility. That shouldn't be like an injury plagued 34 year old Nesta if you're in your 20s and of course his reading of the game is nowhere near the old master.

Yaroslav Rakitskiy is my favorite Ukraine defender. He is okay mobile and knows how to play ball, but not always comfortable in many places when it comes to defending.

Cahill on the other hand I really do think has what it takes to be included here. I had him on the list back when he was at Bolton. He can move well, is strong, great in the air and probably still the most technical (outside Rio) English centreback? But even though it's something very subjective I just think that he makes the really decisive mistakes too often, whether something crazy or his positioning. I see someone like David Luiz much even(?) less guilty of such despite all the attention.

Martín Demichelis would be the prime example of the pre-thoughts to this category and I really like the idea of including him so I might find a way. Prototypical ball-playing defender (former midfielder of course) who just by doing what he does in possession and moving well in a high line to complement his team's other qualities meant very few goals allowed by Malaga this season, but he would definitely have been one of the weakest 1v1 defenders and markers on the list. He also has a history of big blunders in and around the area.

Finally I wanted to include Niklas Moisander so bad and we would have had our first Finn (there is one kind of in contention with the midfielders though) but again just too many defensive mistakes (DAMN THEM!) but wow do I like him bringing the ball out of defense.

50 Nicolas Otamendi - Argentina - Porto
49 Stefan De Vrij - Netherlands - Feyenoord
48 Raphael Varane - France - Real Madrid
47 Aurélien Chedjou - Cameroon - Lille
46 Diego Godín - Uruguay - Atletico Madrid
45 27 Mamadou Sakho - France – PSG
44 Ashley Williams - Wales - Swansea
43 Nicolas N'Koulou - Cameroon - Marseille
42 Jerome Boateng - Germany - Bayern München
41 Matija Nastasic - Serbia - Manchester City
40 Luisao - Brazil - Benfica

Ok 10 quick ones.

De Vrij is my Dutch gamble. It seems like Feyenoord has some serious talent going on. There is someone else who is coming up in the midfielder category who I'm pretty crazy about already and has been following a bit. That's when I more or less stumbled upon De Vrij and he also mightily impressed me for Oranje against Italy recently, so here he is. Good technique, good passer, moves well and I should refrain from claiming he also reads the game well but I suspect so! He should get stronger soon.

Nicolas Otamendi the high-line specialist. At first glance he won't look like a defender with his small build but I really like his defending in a high-line up the pitch both pro-active putting on defensive pressure or offside and reactive hunting down passes and players behind him with all his pace.

mmmm Varane I'm guessing is what the best defenders could very well look like in the coming years. He is not THATbig but still strong (and will get stronger) and crazy athletic overall. Then there is his technical skills which looks to consist of close to the whole repertoire. He had his most physical test against Manchester United just yesterday and that actually seemed more troublesome than Messi for him, that can tell you whatever you want, but he didn't collapse or anything. So talented and already mature in his actions.

Chedjou has been one of the better defenders in France for years I think. Countryman N'Koulou is rapidly joining him.

Boateng has so many tools. Physically with his pace (high line) and size (deeper defending). Good footballer too. Less really bad mistakes, which might be happening already, and his ceiling is still very high.

Ashley Williams is playing very well again but his start to the season put his place at serious risk. I think he can rise more. He is not as big as you think but another with the needed tools both physically and technically to be a defender to my liking.

Speaking of physical tools (no offense meant) there is Mamadou Sakho who is enjoying playing time while Silva is out injured. He is really strong and he is just one of those that can dominate 1v1 in duels. Especially the groundwork can look so impressive in his favor that you also have to give credit for his timing and reading of the game.
His technique is awkward but that very one legged technique of his does at least consist of pretty effective forward ball that he chooses well moving things along for his team.

yeah by far the hardest position for "casual fans" to understand

there are typically two CBs, the slightly more sweeper CB and the tight marker. Essentially there are 3 central defenders in most 4-3-3 variant systems, the DM and the CB. Barca with Biscuits + Pique + Puyol is a protypical example. How do you compare John Terry with the quicker markers that took the opposition's best attacker (first Gallas, then Ricardo C, now Luiz) and allowed him to shout loudly and dive around 'bravely' making blocks?

Defenses are the product of a tactical system, which stands to reason that the CBs that receive much of the credit are also children of the system also. It's really obvious when you see the system's absence, see: lolEngland, Zeman's Roman and Wenger in any big game in the past 8 years.

Ashley Williams was excellent against QPR last weekend. He and Chico brilliant defenders who complement each other quite well.

based on one game against the worst attacking-team in the whole league?

ONE DIMENSIONAL

Bale too low at 1?

The 2012/13 Mid-season Top 50 central defenders continues:

39 Kyriakos Papadopoulos . Greece - Schalke 04
38 28 Andrea Barzagli - Italy - Juventus
37 Sylvain Distin - France - Everton
36 Phil Jagielka - England - Everton
35 Chico - Spain - Swansea
34 Leonardo Bonucci - Italy - Juventus
33 Javier Mascherano - Argentina - Barcelona
32 Benedikt Höwedes - Germany - Schalke 04
31 25 Holger Badstuber - Germany - Bayern München
30 22 Dede - Brazil - Vasco da Gama
29 10 Eric Abidal - France - Barcelona

Ok varied bunch here.

Papadopoulos needs less injuries, less bans and like all Schalke players right now his team finding some kind of form so even seeing them here on the list won't look so weird.

But yeah tremendous physical attributes and when his head is right he can defend at a very high level. I also think he has defensive leader potential but of course that belongs to more solid Höwedes still, who is a really good defender but hurt some by his versatility allowing him to be used at right-back better than many right-backs.

Barzagli has never been better than he is now playing the right-spot in the Juventus 3 man defense. He is a strong man marker in and around the box cutting down previous years mistakes but most impressively he has shown he has the mobility to defend the outer space to an impressive degree (where a right-back would be a lot in a 4 man defense) that this system demands.

Bonucci plays the centre spot there with what you could say include quite a lot of old school libero duties passing and bringing the ball forward which he absolutely loves and he does go overboard sometimes. He isn't up there with the best ball-playing defenders but does have good touches and impressive range of accurate passing.

He is also a total madman and fearless on the pitch with good and bad results when it comes to decision making. Outside of it, recently that could have had disastrous consequences:

When it comes to the Everton-guys Distin's majestic defending getting included is long overdue. His physical attributes are still great, there is still good mobility but all in all Jagielka has probably overtaken him as their best defender. I think I get to complement someone for being a very strong tackler very few times on this list, cause doing a lot of leaving your feet isn't great, but at least I don't think Jagielka is one of those who does it stupid or go overboard and he is quite simply good at it. I don't think he makes bad mistakes either defending man (mostly) deeper in his own half or space and that alone as subjective as it is will put him ahead of many people.

After some shaky moments in the first few games in England Chico very quickly adjusted to what both he could do to opponents physically and what they could do to him. Trying to defend by winning freekicks wasn't a great play after all. He is not someone who needs to either so stop lollygagging! And he hasn't looked back since and played as one of the best centrebacks in the league.
He has the athleticism and know-how to defend people in and around the box and also the excellent pace and anticipation to defend both space and players higher up the pitch, his team benefiting from the rewards. With the ball, his all-round technique is also more than fine and he is very comfortable moving the ball forward.

Javier Mascherano will have his struggles sometimes playing centreback. Fail at something that a more schooled central defender wouldn't but with all his qualities defensively brought with him from his expert defensive midfield play, he is still a very good positive overall I think.
Much of his defending will be far up the pitch in the midfield area where he feels very much at home spoiling both opposing players and space with his defensive actions and of course with the ball he would be one of the best players on many teams with his very underrated passing repertoire. They're well into the dark arts at times but Mascherano's football instincts are superb.

Every time Holger Badstuber is just on the verge of becoming excellent it seems like he gets injured. He is another defender with very good mobility in the central position, comfortable defending space+improved overall marking and just by gaining experience (remember he was thrown into the fire very early) he reads the game better and better making fewer and fewer mistakes. Very importantly he also possesses a fine left-foot that puts him well into the ball-playing category.

Dede has been injured a lot since he was suddenly the biggest thing in Brazil after Neymar, which isn't bad for a defender... There is a lot of guessing here including a sneaking suspicion that it's possible his giant reputation was gained based maybe a little bit too much on some dominant looking 1v1 marking displays in samba-style dribble happy Brazil. That's not a bad thing but it might just be covering some other holes in his overall defending. I'm mostly guessing though!

Abidal is still here which a good of thing of course. Not quite sure where to put him on the list but the last time we saw him he was still a better overall defender than this ranking.

omg bonucci
what a frigging legend

Bjorn, anyway we can get the lists that you've already completed for this season archived in the first post? I have trouble going through the thread and finding them. Or at least link the post #'s where they can be found. Thanks Awesome job btw

Sure (and will be in OP eventually):

Top 100 Forwards

Rundown starting HERE (ok a few posts later)

Top 50 left and right-backs

Rundown starting HERE

Top 100 Attacking midfielders+Wingers

Starting HERE

Liverpool badge reminded me of an obvious change, I will remove Gerrard from the attacking mid list to make room for who I think will be Willian-replacement at Shakhtar, Taison who now that I've seen him in a full game clearly clearly belongs somewhere on that list. Lightning quick threat. It's just one game but it's so obvious. His price tag indicating similar.

Gerrard was really hard to compare to the various attacking mids around him anyway and at this point belongs with the other (mostly central) midfielders instead. Lampard will also only be there.

Change seems good, also noticed how dangerous Taison looked vs. Dortmund. Didn't know about his pedigree so that makes sense.

Thanks bud

Yea I meant in the OP so I don't have to go searching through the thread everytime, but it's good to have them in one place for now. Awesome work

I'll admit I hoped you'd rank CR and Messi among the Attacking midfielders+Wingers too

don't ask me why you'd want to do that