Mac issues have nothing to do with Stars, their operating system handles memory access differently iirc

actually this is a windows issue and a mac (unix) security feature.

the windows operating system allows for tricks to be played on the client that are not possible on mac. see my post for an example where i read out the contents of a combobox from another process by very simple means. this can not be done on the unix breed of oses for well known security reasons. funny enough this could be stopped by stars rather easily. but then they'd have to come to a decission on what data to expose for public use, say for legal trackers, along with securing the hell out of the client on data not intended for public use (many long and winding explanations here). as is right now, all data has to be obtained by hacking into the windows client which may open the door for many more ways to abuse it.

disclaimer: i am not a security expert, just an interested coder.

You shouldnt forget that because of windows security risks alot of reverse engineer professionals make a bread fixing low-level errors that wouldnt be fixable on Mac due to added security.

Nothing is really one-sided, but if i would have to pick a free path or a fixed path i d rather pick a free one where you can make or break things.

pretty sure HEM was using OCR for ftp's rush poker back in the day, whereas PT was using some better method.

maybe they are hooking the stars process to grab the data, ala http://www.codingthewheel.com/archiv...ne-poker-bot-7

i see what you did there. but keep in mind that this thread is about achieving the goal strictly within stars ToS. so failing to reach the goal and being able to proove it beyound doubt is actually win.

i have no idea what you are talking about

I'm curious about this... what does Stars TOS say is allowed and not allowed with regards to this? Is screen scraping/OCRing allowed assuming legitimate purposes? Reading PS process memory? Hooking?

I would think that once you're up and running, a nicely done OCR would be the most reliable. Anything else could be locked out by Stars, and then you're fighting all the time. Learn how to read the screen, and you're probably done the first time (depending on the method used - don't read specific pixels).

read initial post: screen scraping is disalowed in this challenge :-) one day it may be the only way left, until then your exact question was what i got interested in. so i contacted stars on the premise that i want to get the code required up and running for an open source project (that is, the code i write has to open source as well). here is their reply:

---------------------------------------------------
Hello ABC,

Thank you for contacting PokerStars. Your email was escalated to me as a member of the Game Security Team.

Whilst I can't provide you with much instruction on your development efforts, I can perhaps point you in the right direction.

The PokerStars client does not need to be reverse engineered in order to develop a working HUD for Zoom. Screen scraping, log file examination, OCR, and (to a very limited extent) windows message queue hooking (i.e. hooking the Windows message queue with PeekMessage, and watching messages flow by) would not be considered reverse engineering. Everything that a Zoom HUD does can be accomplished without trying to figure out the innards of the PokerStars client.

There is nothing different about a HUD for Zoom versus a HUD for standard tables. After you "fast fold" in Zoom, the IHH (Instant Hand History) window remains attached to the virtual table even after you've moved on to the next. If you fast fold four times, and then sit out, you can watch the IHH view insert the hands (in their correct order) as they complete. Some complete very fast -- when everyone fast folds to the big blind. Others might show up 2 or 3 minutes later, if there's significant action.

The hands are saved, as a "chunk", to the local hand history file as defined in the PokerStars client, and it certainly isn't against the Terms of Service to read the hand histories that PokerStars transmits to the client. That's how to get the data on players. How to identify players in seats is up to you, be it OCR, screen scraping, or windows message queue examinations; I would not define any of those things to be "reverse engineering" in this context (none involve examining the PokerStars executable or its functions).

Finally, please do not be concerned about the open source code that you write being used by others to violate our Terms of Service, such as by using it to develop a poker bot. We prefer to focus our enforcement efforts on prohibiting illicit activity such as developing/operating bot software, rather than a possible symptom. To that end, we have many proprietary tools which are industry leading, and they are under constant improvement.

I trust that this clarifies our position. If you have any other questions or concerns, please let us know. I wish you all the best.

Regards,

XYZ
PokerStars Game Security Team
---------------------------------------------------

..which left me confused for many a reasons: windows hooks? what about mac?

so i am supposed to mess around with a hopelessly outdated client on an operating system that is left over from the stone ages of computing using javelins and hand axes. what stops them from providing the info required in a reasonable way? why do i have to inject dlls and stuff, messing around with the users os, potentially break it just to get some harmless information to make a legal tool work? next i read in PokerTracker forums that their users may have to run their proggy in admin mode to make the zoom HUD work.. ... ... ..rly? so after i stopped laughing i started asking myself, what exactly is it that stars and Poker tracker doing over there?

It is against the PokerTracker EULA to attempt to reverse engineer any part of our software. (I realize that this is not what is happening in this thread YET but I wanted to make that abundantly clear).

Does anyone here believe that a company the size of ours (PokerTracker) is not in frequent communication with PokerStars? Is it that inconceivable that we have a special agreement with PokerStars, that would not be available to your average person or piece of software, that allows us to obtain this information in an accurate and reliable method while operating within the PokerStars TOS? Or maybe we have a special exemption in this case, due to our size and reputation as a company, to operate within a gray area or even outside of the TOS?

Best regards,

Derek

well, starts getting interesting.

feel free to answer: what kind of special agreement are you talking about?

naaaa, there is no special agreement. i was just kidding.

funny thing is that PT has troubles getting their zoom HUD working so it is very unlikely that it is as easy as stars suggests. + PT sees no way to make one that reliably works on mac. so actually we are pulling on the same end of the rope. well, kind off, because i would not mind stars putting way more preasure on PT when it comes to security and restricing imports. anyways, i hope it is obvious that i want to see clear rules, clean interfaces and fair treatement by stars, be it open source or closed source programms. the way it is right now everything has to be done in some gray area. again, i agree with APerfect10 on this.

I think it's naive to think that we would share private information on how we support RUSH. The only thing that matters is that it is approved by PokerStars. I also think it's even more naive to think that PokerStars is going to work with or allow any random person/company to do that -- especially considering their recent crackdown on datamining and PTR.

I think the better question that needs answered is why you need this information? What are you attempting to build?

Best regards,

Derek

go ahead, read the thread to get an idea what i am doing. and don't try to bluff me. nothing is approved by stars, they just tolerate it. but there is an interesting connection in your statement that leads me to a serious question:

what measures are you taking to prevent abuse of PT for data mining? try to give me an idea on how effective they are without the usual blah.

I have already read the thread and it does not address what you are attempting to do which I believe is a very valid question. If anyone and everyone had access to the same information/technology that we have access to it would be very bad for the poker community. There are simply too many ways to misuse/abuse it.

You are more than welcome to keep running in circles. However, if by rare chance, you are able to solve this on your own (which I do not believe has been done to date) -- I think it would be extremely irresponsible to be discussing it on a public forum.

Best regards,

Derek

chances are i am using bad english. i am never shure because it is not my mother tongue. so what i am doing is attempting to get reliable information from the client to make a zoom HUD work for an open source project. so the first question that came to my mind is: how is PT doing it? then i started digging around, including contacting stars with pretty meager success. stars made it look like there is just some message snooping required, which is ok by their terms. but i did not buy that given PTs obvious troubles and my own programming experience. i hope this clears my motivation up for you. and yes, we can run in circles for a long time, i have no problems with that.

reading your statement another question comes to my mind:
to make a HUDwork there is actually very little information required from the client, the rest can be taken from the hand histories. so my question is: getting the data required to make the HUD work, does this have the (unwanted) side effect that more data than necessary is exposed?