Hello I'm not sure if I'm sticking this in the right place. I've been reading about a site called poker table rankings for cash games.. I've never used it I think it's turned into a Russian site now I'm not sure but I'm just wondering if anyone has used it? From what I read it was free to a limit but now it's a subscription. From what I've read it says it gives the info on the amount players have won and stats?

I'm thinking about trying to use it just to look at stats of winning players and trying to base my game on them.. I can't really see it being much use apart from that reason.. It's interesting to look at people's earnings etc but to improve my game the only use I can see is finding leaks in my game and maybe finding a few in other people's?

So I'm asking have you used it?
What do you think of it?
Would you pay for it?
Does it give all stats on players and earnings?

What's your opinion on the site?

I do think it's a bad thing that they can show people's info but if others are gaining a edge from it I don't see why not to use the site.

The cash games DATAMINING site Poker Tables Ratings was at pokertablesratings.com. And yes it is a bad thing & HERE'S A 2+2 THREAD ABOUT PTR

I suppose the copycat [or replacement?] cash games "Russian PTR" DATAMINING site still exists, but I think it's invitation only [could easily be wrong about that]

I wish you the least amount of luck possible in your search for DATAMINING sites

No it's not invitation I've checked the site already.. I do understand is a bad thing but so is a hud and that collects info the same you just need to do it your self.. I don't think the site will be that useful.. Specially not to a reg as he will have a lot of information on players already

One can buy HHs to import into ones poker tracker so that the HUD displays stats for hands never played by the player. Or you can use the HUD/poker tracker so that you conform to the ToS of those poker sites that allow HUDs - almost all sites that allow HUDs expect players to use only their own HHs in play.

It is up to you how you wish to live your life, but don't try to justify bending the rules, just because it is convenient for you to bend them. At least own it - that you're another sleazeball who wants to datamine because other players datamine already. Don't try to make it seem morally acceptable with an incorrect argument about HUDs used according to ToS.

I don't really appreciate you calling me a sleaze ball for asking peoples opinions on the site.. I've not even used the site and I'm not sure I intend to I'm just asking about it.. The end of the day it's available for anyone to use just like a hud is or even sites like sharkscope that gives ratings on player..

My opinion is they should ban all tracking software or make it available to all including huds.. I mean I had never even heard of a hud when I started playing so in my eyes using something like that alone should be cheating.. If people can't use it with out going from the site they play on to download it.

I still didn't even know people can buy hand history's.. I mean if you can do that to used with a hud.. It's just the same as using the sites I've asked about.

Exactly - which is why I carefully make the distinction between playing using a HUD with only your own HHs & stepping over the line & using other peoples HHs in your own HUD. You were obviously unaware of this distinction up until now.

Using online datamining sites to drive a HUD, or buying HHs [or sharing/swapping/pooling HHs with friends for use in play] to drive a HUD is datamining & it's scummy behaviour that can't be justified. Using your own HHs and only your own HHs to drive a HUD is not considered datamining & has come to be the acceptable standard in online poker playing. Do not conflate the two please.

I agree with what you have said the sites are bad and sharing hand history's etc is wrong.

I also think it is wrong that people can use huds to start with though.. I'm not confusing the to things I just think there both bad. I think if we are able to use huds there will always be people data mining sharing hand history's etc.

I don't think the edge from data mining will be that big and I definitely don't even think full time regs will even use anything like that purely because they will have a ton of hand history.

The only thing I can see being very useful out of data mining or the site I've asked about is if someone was starting out and trying to play with the regs because I would imagine they play everyday with other regs and have a ton of history on each other but they probably don't try to play each other they just wait for fish or the people trying to start out with out history on them if you understand.. I look at heads up cash tables etc and it's just regs waiting for people to join.. They don't play other regs.. I'm sure it's the same on 6max and full ring they just play and target the bad players

I've only read about the site because it was talked about when a bot ring was found using the site. I really think botting is wrong and I bet there's a ton of that going on at lower levels of cash.. I mean the botting ring I was reading about what only high stakes cash..

To me it feels like online poker is a bunch of bots

I'm in sympathy with your views in your last two posts!
I'm sorry I over-egged the pudding, but datamining & related scams infuriate me

I think you underestimate the edge that hand sharing/datamining creates
In certain types of poker there are quite large "cartels" of players who pool their HHs to gain a huge edge on the rest of the field

This is definitely still true in PokerStars Spin and Go format even though PS appears to have filled the hole whereby data could be collected on all the games by observers - the easiest way to circumvent the PS block is if HH sharing is going on within pools of scummy players wanting to gain a few vital % ROI edge - only needs to be a couple of % to greatly improve winnings & protect a little from the variance monster.

I stay away from the most exploitable [by scum] poker formats

Thanks for saying that I think your opinion on the site and players using it has really made my mind up with my view of it.. After all I did say in my post I was thinking about using it.. I think if I didn't get such a negative response I would considered it so I don't blame you for over egging.

I also think airing the views I've got about it has helped me think more deeply into it.

Thanks

Its shocking how much stuff goes on really I was playing 6max Holdem for ages but I felt like it was almost robotic like the players could be bots so I moved to playing plo I've played plo for a few years as a hobby. I've now read about bot rings in plo which just makes me think it's crazy that if there is bots that can beat / break even in high stakes plo which is mostly a postflop game then there must be really good bots beating people in low stakes.. And if there that good then surely the ones in Holdem will be aswell. Seems to me like technology is killing poker.


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I follow the A.I. / poker scene closely & I don't think "bots" is a useful term because it covers a lot of different prohibited 'player assistance' strategies

There are literally bots out there that don't use human input, but I suspect the IQ of these things is low. They are profitable for rakeback reasons since they can play for 10-12 hrs a day so even a losing bot can be a winner with rakeback.

There are heavy multi-tablers who have pre-flop fold programs so the human can concentrate on some pre-flop & most post-flop play. Purely chart driven with no accounting for types of opponents, but still 'bots'

Then there's smarter pre-flop fold programs that vary their ranges dynamically according to player stats, stack sizes & the like - still basically programmed charts that assist the human player rather than full robot

The next stage is low IQ bots in groups that share hole cards in cash games & maybe SNG. They still play badly by human standards, but if two are sitting they share hole cards, maybe chip dump to each other, squeeze others out of hands & by these means become winners.

I find it difficult to believe there's literally 'bots' at plo - I think these plo 'bots' are assisting human players by sharing hole cards, stats & bringing up charts for each street when needed with suggestions for the best plays. Sharing hole cards is a massive edge in plo because number of outs is critical to decision making. A plo bot would presumably be able to use all that computing power to calculate in real time your likely ev for shoving post-flop etc.

Those are my guesses anyway judging from pokersnowie, collosus etc

Collosus? I meant CEPHEUS POKER A.I. by the University of Alberta

In case you haven't seen this particular one by Haley Hintze...
It's the BEST ARTICLE on the Russian low stakes PLO 'bot' ring.

It relied mainly on collusion via shared hole cards as I thought plus many, many hands.