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Old 01-24-2008, 02:47 AM   #76
a nonymous
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo26 View Post
So why is PO officially allowed by PS while they explicitly ban datamining?? Makes no sense.
E-mail them and post what they say.
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Old 01-31-2008, 02:16 PM   #77
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by king_nothing_ View Post
How? It only lets me open 30 tables at a time...
Photoshop FTW!
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Old 01-31-2008, 02:20 PM   #78
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

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Originally Posted by PKS Ace View Post
Photoshop FTW!
I don't think so.
I accidentally discovered how can I do this too.
So lately I am mining 100+ tables too.
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Old 02-01-2008, 05:57 AM   #79
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

I was curious myself so I asked pokerstars why poker office was still allowed. This is how they responded.

Thank you for your email and your feedback. The Poker Office software has recently been reviewed and has been deemed acceptable for user with PokerStars. Rest assure that the decision was not taken lightly and all matters pertaining said program were reviewed before arriving to this depiction. If there is anything else we may help you with, please let us know. Regards, VielkaPokerStars Support Team
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:46 AM   #80
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrBerg View Post
I was curious myself so I asked pokerstars why poker office was still allowed. This is how they responded.

Thank you for your email and your feedback. The Poker Office software has recently been reviewed and has been deemed acceptable for user with PokerStars. Rest assure that the decision was not taken lightly and all matters pertaining said program were reviewed before arriving to this depiction. If there is anything else we may help you with, please let us know. Regards, VielkaPokerStars Support Team
w.
T.
F.

will be emailing Stars once wake up tomorrow

Not happy.

"So long as you use PokerOffice, it is fine to datamine stars - PokerTracker and HoldemManager users - don't dare datamine else you'll risk banning!"

I hope this is a made up jopke post

Last edited by _dave_; 02-02-2008 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:48 AM   #81
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

L.
O.
L.

Really?
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:11 AM   #82
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

Reply to my email from PS:

Thank you for your Email. I will try to explain in more detail why Poker
Office is permitted but SHH is not.

SHH is not permitted because its purpose and intent is to allow
datamining. Poker Office is permitted because its primary intent and
function is as a HUD and hand history analysis tool. Its
datamining "capability" is incidental to its primary function, and it is
not sold or promoted as a dataminer.

The use of this particular feature of Poker Office (the ability to include
hands in its database in which the player did not participate) is actually
permitted within the spirit of our rules. It is perfectly acceptable to
open 4 tables, place yourself on all 4 waiting lists, and let Poker Office
watch the games until your seat becomes available, then using the brief
amount of data gathered in the past few minutes to decide whether to take
the seat. While this may technically be against the letter of the law, it
is well within the spirit of the law.

What is not permitted is to open up two dozen tables and walk away from
your computer while it datamines volumes of data on a wide swath of
players for extended periods of time.... even using Poker Office.

This is the only purpose of SHH, which is why it is permitted. This is a
secondary, unintended possibility in Poker Office, whose primary function
is far different, which is why Poker Office is permitted in general.

In short, Poker Office as a whole is OK, but if you use it for purposes
that violate the terms of service (i.e. datamining) you will still get
into trouble when we detect you doing so.

I hope this has answered your question completely. Please do not hesitate
to let us know any time you need anything.

Best Regards,

Jeff
PokerStars Game Security
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:15 AM   #83
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

wow.

paging pokerstarsJeff for a proper explanation on this.

if it is fine to datamine with pokeroffice "while awaiting a seat" or I guess "while selecting tables" - then this script is fine (and I'll post a superior version for all) and SSH should be fine!

Posted in the IG forum thrtead where Jeff seems to be responding about this.

It is imo ridiculous using PO to datamine is fine, yet PT+SSH (or AHK) is a bannable offence.

Given how superior PokerTracker and HoldemManager are in the area of tracking, I'd be confident the only valuer in PokerOffice is as a legal Stars mining application - which if true, make it a bargain.

Last edited by _dave_; 02-03-2008 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:15 AM   #84
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

so, as long as you dont promote your product as a dataminer then it's ok?

surprised _dave_ hasn't locked this thread since he became a mod and hates people who "cheat" by mining stars

edit: lol, there you are dave, right on time
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:26 AM   #85
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

not gonna lock, this has become far too interesting

and I don't necesarrily hate people who mine stars - I primarily hate the fact I can not do so without risking my account, so only cheats benefit. I monthy winner/loser posts from the miners
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:27 AM   #86
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricks View Post
Reply to my email from PS:

Thank you for your Email. I will try to explain in more detail why Poker
Office is permitted but SHH is not.
....
..
.


Best Regards,

Double-Talking Puppet

PokerStars Game Jokurity
FYP


Quote:
Given how superior PokerTracker and HoldemManager are in the area of tracking, I'd be confident the only valuer in PokerOffice is as a legal Stars mining application - which if true, makes it an application targeted at data-miners (as that is it's only true value) and should be banned, by Jeff's own definition.
****************

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
not gonna lock, this has become far too interesting

...
..
.
You should lock it before I get myself banned. I had to edit myself a few times when renaming Jeff from Stars int he FYP of the email.

Last edited by fozzy71; 02-03-2008 at 02:32 AM.
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:29 AM   #87
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

one may lol - but this is Jeff - head honcho

pls to be demanding answers in IG forum.
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Old 02-03-2008, 03:06 AM   #88
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

I agree - I want answers too. Trying to have a little fun while we wait for an answer.

I really hope what ever he has to say - is better than what that quoted e-mail said.

Last edited by fozzy71; 02-03-2008 at 03:07 AM. Reason: He could be a politician, with those types of answers.
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Old 02-03-2008, 03:15 AM   #89
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

heh, Jeff is no politician - see the TeddyFBI "my mom is accused of botting" thread

I'm pretty sure Jeff is an honorable & honest PS employee
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:38 AM   #90
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricks View Post
Reply to my email from PS:
... Poker Office is permitted because its primary intent and
function is as a HUD and hand history analysis tool. Its
datamining "capability" is incidental to its primary function, and it is
not sold or promoted as a dataminer.
...
I seem to remember Josh saying somewhere that PAHUD already could datamine PS but doesn't because of Stars T&C. Sounds like PS are saying it's ok after all.
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Old 02-03-2008, 07:21 AM   #91
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

If they have warned/notified PokerOffice users who use it for datamining 24 tables before siting down I guess I agree.

But im certain they have not and will not.

Plus Im sure everybody using anything other than SHH have never ever been warned/banned.
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Old 02-03-2008, 07:28 AM   #92
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

so using of poker office including their datamining function is allowed by pokerstars,but the user has to guess,where pokerstars draws the line between observing ┤for table selection and datamining.thats just ridiculous.
thats like getting a bit pregnant but not really pregnant!!

i hope pokerstars jeff will come in to explain this properly to us.

asteroid
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Old 02-03-2008, 11:17 AM   #93
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

I thought the e-mail was well-worded and basically said that datamining (>few tables for 20mins) is still not wanted on PS.
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Old 02-03-2008, 04:25 PM   #94
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
@PokerStarsJeff

it is alleged (by copy/paste email) you have informed people using PokerOffice to datamine is A-OK, yet other datamining applications are banned.
I suggest you re-read what I wrote. Steel101 is grossly misrepresenting it, as what I wrote very explicitly says that you *may not* use Poker Office to datamine.

Quote:

Or should us software people be creating applications with a primary function other than datamining so it is OK?
Again, please re-read what I wrote most carefully. It lays out very specifically what activity is and is not permitted, and delineates the difference between the activity and the capability of the software.

To clarify, it doesn't matter WHAT the primary purpose of the program is. If you use it for datamining, you're breaking the TOS, and when (not if) you're caught, you'll face sanctions.

Best Regards,

Jeff
PokerStars Game Security
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Old 02-03-2008, 10:04 PM   #95
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

huh? I am at a loss for words Mr JEFF
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Old 02-03-2008, 10:12 PM   #96
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStarsJeff View Post
I suggest you re-read what I wrote. Steel101 is grossly misrepresenting it, as what I wrote very explicitly says that you *may not* use Poker Office to datamine.



Again, please re-read what I wrote most carefully. It lays out very specifically what activity is and is not permitted, and delineates the difference between the activity and the capability of the software.

To clarify, it doesn't matter WHAT the primary purpose of the program is. If you use it for datamining, you're breaking the TOS, and when (not if) you're caught, you'll face sanctions.

Best Regards,

Jeff
PokerStars Game Security
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth (or email), but the truth of the matter is that if you allow Poker Office (with the ability to datamine) then people are going to use it for that express purpose. With what you said, people can easily say that they are just waiting for tables and seeing where to play. I'm considering buying Poker Office even though it is a piece of crap; it's a small price to pay for such a huge advantage over the field (being able to table select better. I don't mean to berate you, but I hope you get where I am going with this. I just moved to Stars and have 0 hands when I started. I'm building my database the correct way (by logging ALOT of hands). My life would be a lot easier if I had Poker Office because I don't like playing with a bunch of other 2+2ers

Edit: its steel108 PokerStarsGeoff
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Old 02-03-2008, 10:47 PM   #97
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

Jeff, thank you for responding so promptly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStarsJeff View Post
I suggest you re-read what I wrote. Steel101 is grossly misrepresenting it, as what I wrote very explicitly says that you *may not* use Poker Office to datamine.

Again, please re-read what I wrote most carefully. It lays out very specifically what activity is and is not permitted, and delineates the difference between the activity and the capability of the software.

To clarify, it doesn't matter WHAT the primary purpose of the program is. If you use it for datamining, you're breaking the TOS, and when (not if) you're caught, you'll face sanctions.
I have read your post many times trying to make sense of it.

PokerOffice *will* datamine, if it is running and you have a table open, if you are waiting for a seat to open, or even if you are waiting to post your blind in turn.

I know it is not the real meaning of the term "datamining", but I suspect you know the context in which it is used here - that is the act of recording observed hand histories for database import and future data mining.

It is therefore almost impossible to *not* datamine using the "tracker" PokerOffice. over time, these people will build up a large number of additional hands.

If you read all my posts in this thread, you will see I am really not happy with AHK being used to datamine Stars - I program lots of AHK, and I play almost exclusively on Stars - and I do not datamine, since it is against the rules. We have yet to see a report in this thread of people even receiving a warning for mining with this script.

This thread therefore annoys me on many levels, since AHK is being used for purposes against the rules of my favorite site, rule-breakers are not being punished, and now we get this strange email where apparently dataminig is fine if it is only for a few hands while waiting for a seat???

It is a huge advantage to open 12 tables for 10 minutes, grab a coffee while mining the stats and then select the best for waitlisting - one which is recommended practice on FTP and Party, but something I believed was outright banned at PokerStars... now we learn different - it is OK if it is pokeroffice being used???

As I quoted in the other thread, "ask them to remove this feature or ban them" - and start warning people who do datamine using this script, PokerOffice, or any of the other available tools (other than SSH or StarSpy, which I believe are detected / warned at this time). even if you detect multiple copy/paste on the IHH window if need be lol.

At this point, honest players are at a serious disadvantage to those who do not play by the rules.

Alternatively allow datamining - personally I'd rather not see this, but in the light of recent superuser scandals it may be a good idea...
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Old 02-03-2008, 11:05 PM   #98
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

If I am to understand this:

PT3/HEM/PEV can all add in code, so their apps can "incidentally" read HH's while I am "waiting to find a few good tables". As long as they don't emphasize that feature, or advertise it - everything is good. So what is the problem?? Oh, right - Ethics and Morality. Who cares about those old traits.

/sarcasm

I will be forwarding this thread to the PT3/HEM/PEV developers. I am sure they will find this all very interesting.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:59 AM   #99
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

@ PokerStarsJeff

Could you explain what exactly you are doing to prevent players from abusing PokerOffice?
Did anybody ever get punished/banned for abusing it? If so, what are the restrictions to use this software?
E.G. do you have rules that say it is allowed to have PO running while waiting for a seat but it is not allowed to have it running while not playing/waiting at a table? And more important, how can you make sure everybody abides these rules?
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:15 PM   #100
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Re: Data Mining PokerStars

I searched the PokerOffice support forum and found several threads where a member of the support team of PO happily announces that it is possible to datamine PokerStars with PO. No word of violating the TOS or anything.

http://www.pokeroffice.com/forum/sup...atamining.html
http://www.pokeroffice.com/forum/pok...-datamine.html
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