I run into hands where I flop the nuts against 1-3 villains, have only a high hand, and have trouble deciding to play fast or slow. The more players to see flop the more likely I am to play fast unless OOP with aggressives behind to go for a CR or something to get more in and take it down there.

For instance, let's say I have AKKQ with 3 s UTG


(assuming we're 100 BB effective) I raise 3x UTG with 2 callers behind and both SB and BB fold so I'm first to act on the flop.

Flop comes: 2 6 9

By default I'm fast playing and betting out here hoping to get called by worse flushes, which has helped me stack them sometimes, or low draws with or without worse flushes etc. More often than not, though, I'm getting most all to fold with the nuts in hand. Not all bad as it's a scoop in a raised pot, don't have to worry about a board pair and all that.


Would it be a check if someone 3bet behind me PF?
If it was heads up (3bet or not)?
How about if I was the BTN, 2 limp callers to my raise (assuming blinds fold PF and checked to on flop)?

Basically, when do you like a check here?

I think this is correct. You're looking at 7 cards so that 45 cards are missing. Of the 45, 9 pair the board and 6*4=24 enable low. Since you can't like any of these possible 33/45 cards, you don't want an opponent drawing and catching one of them.

Pot it, hoping the board doesn't pair and there will be no low.

Buzz

The more players who see the flop, the less likely I am to bet here. As it is, you only have 55% vs 22** and the more players who see the flop, the more likely a set is. This hand is still easy to play on the turn if another low comes, but what do you do if the board pairs?

Many years ago, I read a post by Buzz which looked at top set on a board with two lows, ie 26Kcc with your hand. In this case, he mentioned that even though top set looks powerful, in reality, it isn't that strong and it may be worth checking back (at least in LO8). The fact that you only have 55% vs a set means you are inflating the pot and creating a very difficult turn position. If the flop goes check check, it makes the turn much easier to play and also may make weaker hands more likely to call a turn bet. c/c vs c/r would probably depend on SPR. If they bet the flop, it may be worthwhile to c/c the flop then c/r the turn if a good card falls.

hu, I'm definitely betting it out since there is much less likely to be a set. Also more likely to bet as BTN because you can always check back the turn if the board pairs. OOP vs 2-3 villians, I would probably check back the flop since I don't believe I am currently skilled enough to profitably play the turn if a pair falls.

Side question: would the answer be any different if the board fell 26Kcc instead?

Hi Viv. Did I advise someone to check a set of kings after a flop of
2,6,K in a fixed-limit game? I wonder what the circumstances were. I wonder what I was thinking.

Four points:

• #1. I think a flop of
  2,6,9 is much different than a flop of
  2,6,K.
  
  • #2. Flopping a flush is much different from drawing to a flush. When you flop a flush, you're concerned about an opponent making a full house or quads if the board pairs. When you're drawing to a flush, you have the same concern multiplied by the probability of making the flush.
  
  • #3. And flopping top set is much different from flopping the nut flush.
  
  • #4. Finally, making a bet of one small bet in fixed-limit is much different from betting the pot in pot-limit.

I don't think many opponents would fold the nut low draw with counterfeit protection to one small bet in fixed-limit. But someone might fold such a draw to a pot-sized bet in pot-limit.

I don't think anyone will fold top set of nines to a small bet in fixed-limit Omaha-8. But someone might fold a lower set or two pairs.

When you flop the nut flush in pot-limit Omaha-8, I think you want to protect it, if possible. Or at least charge your opponents full price to draw out on you.

You'd also like to protect your flopped top set in fixed-limit Omaha-8 after a flop of
2,6,K. But that's harder to do.

Buzz

I remember you suggesting to consider checking back a set of jacks on a LLH board because the hand was not so powerful.

How would you play this differently from the nut flush? They both seem similar and at a glance should be played very similarly, either both bet out strongly or checked back.

This makes perfect sense and was what my play was based around in 2010. I'm in the process of questioning being so aggressive so I have been asking myself "do I *really* want to bet there?" in many situations so make myself take a step back and look at it differently.

Another interesting question here is what the value of betting out is on better disguising your range. Betting out here and going to showdown would certainly help your cbets when the flop completely misses you. I'm now wondering whether the main value of betting this out is from this hand itself or whether it is in creating a dynamic where your opponent is facing many large bets from you and must make some difficult decisions.

Buzz - do you ever think there is a time to check? The only thing I'm thinking is when there are multiple players in who just can't fold the nut low (which is really most people it seems). If it's 5 way with the same flop, either in or out of position, you ever find the check button "hoping" a low comes out to get two streets of value from two villains for half the pot?

The more I think about it I don't know if this is ever a check. I've had pot sized bets called with low only draws and low draws with small flushes. So those, combined with scooping on the flop, less the "suckouts", probably make this a bet no matter the position. Ya know, barring some friggin maniac to your left.

First, are we talking full ring or 6m? If it's full ring I would probably prefer a fold or limp better than a raise UTG. As played you shouldn't get results oriented and betting here is fine. You don't want the set's to get there for free and worse hands will call with low draws. If they fold you scooped a pot that had several players call it preflop so it's not a total loss. I know you want to maximize your profit here, but being oop, while you may have the nut flush can get you in trouble if the board pairs and you are multiway. Bet that flop! If the board pairs, sht happens, proceed with caution and use what you know of the villains in the hand to determine your next play on the turn.

They do seem similar.

With a flopped nut flush, you have a made hand. But it needs "protection." (You protect it by betting to hopefully drive out your opponents who are drawing for the board to pair). And when there are two low ranks on the flop, you don't want to split with low.

I think of a flopped set as a drawing hand. That's truer at a full, loose table than a short handed, tight table. To an opponent drawing to make a flush and/or a straight, there's not a lot of difference between a set and two pairs. (A made flush or straight beats either one).

You want to mix up your play somewhat, but aside from this consideration, unless you're getting favorable odds because of the number of opponents, in general you want to keep your investment in the pot small with a drawing hand. The idea is if you miss your draw, you fold... but if you catch your draw, you bet and get paid off. In it's purest form, it's a too simplistic approach... but you spice it up by betting scare cards often enough to keep your opponents off guard and paying you off when you do hit your draw.

That's the general idea.

How best to do things always depends on your opponents. You modify that approach as needed to cope with the actual opponents you're facing.

That approach makes good sense to me.

A lot depends on how many opponents you're facing.

[quote]I'm now wondering whether the main value of betting this out is from this hand itself or whether it is in creating a dynamic where your opponent is facing many large bets from you and must make some difficult decisions./QUOTE]It's harder to cope with a pot sized bet than a passive check. When you make play harder for your opponent, your opponent is more likely to make mistakes.

Buzz

Yes. I do. What's best depends on your particular opponents... and I think in general you want to vary your play somewhat.

I think the default position is to bet the pot here. But there might be special circumstances where a check makes more sense. I think it depends on your opponents, but in general I think Hero does better to bet here... just my opinion.

Buzz

That is an interesting way to look at it. I'm used to playing short handed with over half my flops being heads up and very few flops having 3 or more villains. In the heads up case, I would consider a set to be a made hand and would likely play it bet the flop/turn and c/c the river if the board doesn't pair since there would be a likely flush or straight on the board by then. Assuming I bet out the flop with top flush, I would play it exactly the same if the board paired on the river.

I can certainly see why it would be a drawing hand, especially in a multiway flop. This makes even more sense considering your limit background and isn't something I ever would have considered with my PL background. Maybe one solution is for me to play more LO8 to gain a better understanding of the game.

Ah! That explains the discrepancy.

That makes good sense.

Where you can even find a table of Omaha-8 in a brick and mortar casino, the Omaha-8 tables are all fixed-limit, and are mostly full (mostly 9 players per table in California and mostly 10 players in Nevada and Arizona) with a waiting list. If the table gets down to six players, it usually abruptly breaks. Casinos generally won't start a game until there are at least enough players to fill a table. The only times I've played with five or fewer players at a table in a brick and mortar casino have been at final tables in tournaments. That's my brick and mortar casino experience.

I understand it may be different around world series time in Las Vegas. I understand pot-limit Omaha-8 games have gotten going here and there around world series time in Las Vegas... but they may be too rich for my blood

I've played pot-limit Omaha-high-only and no-limit Omaha-8 in casinos in Los Angeles county, but I've never even seen a cash game of pot-limit Omaha-8 in a brick and mortar casino. The only games of pot-limit Omaha-8 in which I have played (or even seen) have been on-line or in private games. I've been on the sign up list in casinos for pot-limit Omaha-8, but I've never been in a casino when a game of pot-limit Omaha-8 has actually materialized, at least to my knowledge. That's my experience.

Buzz

Buzz is a genius!! You should write a book, i'd buy it!

I'm curious, what stakes have you played in 08? Seems like you are a very experienced player.

The raise pre is good. On the flop, betting should be your default. Sets are not raising you and the only hand you are worried about is a combo low/set. Your range should be wide enough on this texture that low/set combos aren't the only hands giving you action. Also, a good amount of players will overplay this board with the nut low draw/ medium flush, not realizing they could only be playing or half. Punish them quickly by putting maximum pressure on them if you feel they also hold a flush.

The turn is where it gets interesting, especially if a low presents itself. If my opponents calling range on the flop was wide and my opponents are the type to bet most of their range when we check to them on the turn, I LOVE check-raising. Puts them in such a tough spot. I prefer this play against a single opponent.

Against two opponents, which are both likely to have the nut low, keep betting. All you can do now is decide how much they will call. If i get raised, I call and pray for the board to stay un-paired, but I don't fold. You will have way the best of it in this situation. If you really know your opponents you can check raise the river, especially if you know the first caller will bet the nut low on the river and the second will call lightish. I lean toward this play if the second caller on the turn has a wide calling range and the first caller doesn't need to worry about getting quartered as much by the second caller (because he isn't weighted to a nut hand).

Your question was when to check... when the pot is head up and you know he has you beat for half and your fold equity is non-existent. Or, if the pot is multi-way and my gut says they are drawing live with a low hand already locked up by a different opponent. In that case, I don't try and knock out the inferior high hands.

Buzz- we have been getting a PLO8/ PLO mix at the Commerce ($3 dollar bb, 100-300 buyin) running almost every night. I had no idea about it until 2 weeks ago when someone on this forum let me know about it. It also runs at the Bike, but I haven't been able to get a game going there due to most of the regulars being in Vegas at this time of the year. I know you play in the area too. Can't wait to run into you in person.

Thanks.

Low stakes.

I'm not a professional poker player. Omaha-8 poker is my hobby. I'm a recreational player and a student of the game.

Buzz

Really?!! You should play high stakes. You would crush the games. People are clueless. Your advice has made me HUNDREDS.

You should def stay on the west coast and don't bother coming to FL...nothing to see here

This! I don't post much but recently decided to put some effort into improving my PLO8/LO8 game. A few yrs ago, I had several coaching sessions w/ gergery and one thing I remembered was that he said I should attention to posts from Buzz. Glad to see you are still around and active!