I am new to Omaha/8. I read Jeff hwangs section in his first PLO book. wich I thought was pretty good.


ONE THING. I wondered about is, since im playing in stakes up to 25c or 50c.


Are 2-3-x-x and 2-4-5-x hands really a marginal.trash hand??? I mean I think for these micro limits. can they be profitable or will I get scooped and burned more frequently? I think with 2-4-5-x or 2-3-x-x hands I can still make a 7-6 or 8-6 low which might be good enough still. hwang only reccomends playing 2-3-x hands in late position and if you dont have to call an extra bet with them.

What do you guys think about 2-3-x-x hands? I want to start playing sometimes this week and want to first get a better understanding of starting hand requirements.

Well first off, I don't consider 23xx to be a "hand category" in the sense that A2xx is. The XX is just too important. If it's a wheel card and a suited K it's often playable, if it's two random danglers than it rarely is. You too often hit trap flops where you could be drawing nearly dead like 456, which is why it's tough OOP. I'd prefer to have the possibility of smashing a flop with counterfeit protection like 2346 on an A5x flop, for example.

The problem I have with 23 in general is that you'd like to get in cheap in a multiway pot since you need such a specific flop to continue, but the more multiway the pot is, the less likely you are to hit a A48 flop or whatever because the aces and wheel cards will tend to be out more. And if the pot is shorthanded you might be more likely to hit an A but all you have is a weak 1-way hand anyway.

I think the best situation for this type of hand is in LP in a loose-passive game where players don't need to have aces in their hand, and will be chasing middle straights and aces-up hands when you have the low locked up.

The one iece of advice I can give is that in O8, when you're calculating the low, you start from the bottom up. So you start with A2, A3, 23, etc.

This is the opposite of others wages like Stud8 or TD, where you start from the top (the worst card) and go down.

From this perspective, you can see that you're not trying to make 86 lows or whatever, you're trying to flop an Ace and then make a 23 low.

You wouldn't believe how long it took me to figure this out.

Thanks guys. Excellent advice

I will try to play 2-3-4/6-x hands with a high paint card as long as its suited. and I will try to play those hands in LP.


my problem is that even though Hwang states that in O8, if you are in a weak small stakes game. if you play a tight style. you can beat the game. I just feel waiting for a hand with any A will be really tight and will feel awkward. Position is important and I will try to play marginal hands from only LP.

is A-4-6-7 rally a marginal bad hand? I feel that I have a license to limp and see a flop with that hand from any position? I know A4 is a very marginal A but feel we can see flops that have wrap potential as well as some low draws. Or is it the reason it is a bad hand is because we are blocking our own low draw?

Agree with this.

Another problem is that you can still get quartered in multiway pot, so unless you have a 4 or 5 and/or suit(s) to go with the 23, then even a seeminly good flop of A48 or A58 isn't all that dandy.

Don't worry about being tight and predictable in a loose O8 full ring game. One of the great things about O8 is that even if people pay enough attention to know the type of hands you play they just won't be able to help themselves but to draw and give you action.

As far as the hand mentioned, it's not terrible but not particularly good either- One thing to consider is the type of board you're really looking for to scoop or 3/4 a pot. 23589r is a little too specific. More often you'll find yourself with a straight draw and a weak low and potentially getting none if the board pairs or a flush comes through. Trying to get half the pot with a straight is a bad situation in O8. A hand that's seemingly just a little different like A346 is worlds apart in terms of being able to flop a huge draw for the whole pot or freeroll.

One thing I notice is that you don't mention the suitedness of any of the hands you're bringing up, when that's actually a much more important feature than rundown/straight type cards. Suited A/wheel type hands are the nuts in a loose limit O8 game.

Yup youre right. that is important for scooping. One thing I have noticed in your posts is you are thinking a step ahead saying what is a good flop or what do I want to flop with my hand. It is a section in Hwangs book that I overlooked and didn't read because I didn't feel it was important. Looks like in OMAHA in general, I need to think of what flops I want to see.



I am about to play some later on. prolly .5/.10 FR. I might post back in here some hands or spots I was confused about

Are you playing no-limit, pot-limit, or fixed-limit? I'm guessing fixed-limit and will label this thread accordingly, but if it's pot limit, please correct me and I'll change the label.

I presume when you write 2-3-x-x, and 2-4-5-x you mean to exclude any aces.

I would not call either 2-3-x-x or 2-4-5-x a "marginal trash hand." But honestly most bare 23** hands are not very good starting hands. by "bare" 23** hands, I mean 23** hands without another wheel card or a six. (I put 234*, 235*, and 236* hands in another category, especially 234* hands).

If we're excluding aces and other ranks of wheel cards I (personally) like 245* better than 23** in a fixed-limit game because the former hand has three different wheel cards, affording an amount of counterfeit protection. When you're playing for low or primarily for low, having a measure of counterfeit protection is very handy.

I don't know, because I've never played at micro limits. The question that arises in my mind is why are you playing micro limits.

Some people play micro limits to learn the game and then when they have learned the game, they move up to higher limits. I want to help these people. I think I help them more by giving them advice that probably pertains more to higher limits than beating the crap out of those trying to learn the game so as to move up or those playing the game to have a bit of fun.

I have mixed feelings about people who play micro limits hoping to somehow beat the crap out of other micro-limit players so as to grind out a living that would be sub-standard to me. By my own standards I don't think I'm really helping anybody in this category by giving them poker advice that will help them beat micro players but that would make them probable losers at higher stakes against superior opponents.

All that written, the essence of poker is out-playing your particular opponents. You should do what works best against the particular opponents you happen to be facing.

It might.

Depends on how many opponents you have and how they play. But without an ace or another, different ranked, wheel card or six in the hand too, starting hands containing a deuce and a trey are not as strong as starting hands containing various other two card combinations. I'd rather have
A2**,
A3**,
AA**,
A4**,
As*s** (means a suited ace)
A5**,
AK**, and
A6**.

And in that order.

Varies with your playing style, the number of opponents dealt cards, and for those with flexibility also varies with the particular opponents you're playing.

My advice is when you begin, only play starting hands with A2**, A3**, AA**, and As*s**. Once you learn the ropes and become somewhat familiar with your opponents, add (but sensibly) A4**, A5**, and A6** hands. Later (still sensibly) add 234* and 235* hands. And still later add 245*, 345*, and some high only hands. Gradually add more starting hands as you gain experience.

That's beginner advice, too tight for most good regulars, probably no fun for anybody who craves action and who's not multi-tabling.

The idea is to survive as a beginner and not get hurt while you learn the game and the ways of your opponents. If you play as tightly as recommended above you will be mostly watching while you learn. You need patience, interest, and intelligence to be able to do that.

If you have attention deficit disorder or some other learning disability, or if you need lots of action, be forewarned: the approach I've outlined probably won't work for you. Otherwise you'll probably turn a small profit or at least break even while you learn.

Buzz

I'm laughing. I just advised you to play tighter than that. (And "awkward" is not a concern of mine).

Position is important, but not nearly as important in fixed-limit as in pot-limit or no-limit.

I think there are really fifteen uniquely different A467 hands. I'll list them below for you, using the ProPokerTools convention of enclosing cards of the same suit in parentheses.
(A7)(64)
(A6)(74)
(A4)(76)
(A764)
(A76)4
(A74)6
(A64)7
A(764)
(A7)64
(A6)74
(A4)76
A(76)4
A(74)6
A(64)7
A764

I think probably (A4)(76) is the best and is definitely playable, for anyone except a beginner. A764 would be generally playable for some strong players.

All of these hands lack sufficient high card strength to be premium starting hands, and they all suffer from having two middle cards (the seven and six).

Me too.

I think the ace-four two-card combination is much stronger than the deuce-trey two-card combination. I don't think of it as "marginal."

A4 isn't an Omaha-8 hand at all. A4 is only part of a hand, only one of the six two-card combinations within a four card hand.

Buzz

Donk Quixote is a good poster who gives thoughtful advice.

Omaha-8 is quite a different game from Omaha. However, in both games the flops you want to see depend very much on the cards in your starting hand.

Fine. Please start another thread if you post a hand history.

Buzz

Ummmm.... It is?

position is everything

depends on pos what 23 hands you play...you should never fold any 23 hand on the btn, also ylu should never fold any 2345 hand in any pos

position is important along with stack size and action in front of you obv.

But to say you should never fold any 23xx hand OTB is pretty bad advice imo. There are a ton of 23xx hands OTB u should be folding depending on the above. Some you should even be folding on level 1 if there is any action already.

2345 u want to see a flop as often as u can but not for a large % of ur stack so it also depends on stack size and action in front.

I believe we are assuming this is the limit holdem version of o8.

I have trouble seeing a hand like 23Q9r being profitable even on the button

ahh ye i now see sometin about an 'extra bet' i just saw somethin about a PLO book so presumed PLO

still this though and stack sizes and action still play a part

I think what he's saying is that in stud/8 you can have: 75432 which will beat 7632A ... so the fact that one player started with 32 and another A2 doesn't mean quite the same thing as in Omaha/8, where you are sharing the board and thus. have a dominated low (and even worse you _need_ the A to hit the board, at which point the other player knows his low is bad if he just has A2).

I think I would word any advice more that you have to be aware that you are sharing the cards on the board ... so if you have 754 on the board, so do all villains.