Let me just say thanks to everyone who has participated in the newb's thread. It's a great resource. Honestly, it's better than most of the books you can buy. All of you are quite generous with your time.

I sat in a 10/20 O/8 game a few weeks ago at the casino waiting for a NL seat to open. I only played a round or so, but I could tell no one knew what they were doing. I was also rather fascinated by the game. I decided I wanted to learn more. It's been fun trying to master a new poker game. It's been at least 10 years since I learned a new game (since making the transition from LHE to NLHE after the Moneymaker Effect). I've enjoyed the challenge and O8 is a fun and interesting game. And frustrating...

Since then, I've played about 60 hours of $.25/.50 full ring limit O8 on Bovada now. I've also read Cappelleti's book (which was pretty bad, imo), the chapter in Helmuth's book (not great), and the chapter in SSII (which was pretty good), and am waiting for Ray Zee's book in the mail. I've spent many hours playing around with PPT as a result of this thread. I now feel quite comfortable with preflop play, but I feel like my post flop play still needs some work. That's where I need to plug some leaks to turn the corner. There are still lots of situations that I'm uncertain about. Here's one I am curious about.

Hero: A A 3 8

UTG call, Hero in MP raises (to play my aces against fewer opponents; if I were on the BTN and had 3-4 limpers, I'd probably just call), BTN calls, and BB calls, and UTG calls. 4-way action.

Flop: J T 3

BB checks, UTG checks, Hero?, BTN still to act.

What do you do with aces when you've raised preflop in this kind of situation? I have position, but I can no longer make a low (not a decent one anyway), there's a good chance at two pair, and more importantly, there's a straight and flush draw out there with 3 people in the pot.

Do you just give up on the hand or do you make a bet here to at least get to heads up? There's really no good card on the turn, right? An A potentially makes a straight and an A makes a potential flush. An ace or any 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 also increases the likelihood of a low.

Four handed, I have 18.69% equity after the flop against 3 random hands.

Thoughts?

[It's hard for me to know if this belongs in the newb thread or a separate thread. It seems basic/newbish to me, but please create its own thread if you think appropriate, Buzz.]

Nice starting hand. Three strong features:
• the pair of aces
• the suited ace
• the ace-trey combo for low.

I think you prefer fewer players with the pair of aces, but with the suited ace (nut flush draw) I think you prefer more players.

OK.

You missed a fit with this flop, but maybe your opponents did too. I'd bet. Hope they fold.

Depends somewhat on your opponents, but in general, I'd bet.

I'd like to see a non-diamond trey on the turn. Otherwise, it kind of depends on how your opponents deal with the flop bet.

I'd bet. See what happens.

You might get better answers in a separate thread. I don't think everyone reads the newbs thread.

However I'll leave it here unless you ask to have it moved to its own separate thread.

Buzz

Sure, Buzz. Please put it in its own thread. Again, it's hard for me to tell if it's a newb question or not...

You should bet the flop. You will frequently have hands that connect with this flop and you should represent that is indeed what has occurred. The fact you have Aces can be of some help if you get called as it is possible you are called by someone who has a naked draw with no pair, meaning you are ahead.

There is a risk you get called by multiple opponents but you have to take that risk.

If you are raised it is probably best to fold to the raise.

If you get called there is a chance you can backdoor a low or win the hand by pairing the board and all the draws miss.

I'm checking this flop. These are the bets you save that add to your hourly. You can't afford to waste bets. A 4 way pot you need a strong hand to bet here as I doubt you get thru the field often, which is the most desireable result. As you mentioned there aren't many good cards, and your hand is gunna have hold up for what is presumably two more streets. If you do bet, you'd obv hope it's gets HU and you got position, not a bad spot for you. I'm just not sure how often that happens in a 4 way pot and o8 players are notoriously loose and look for any reason to continue. For those reasons I check

AA83 w/a suited Ace is good enough to raise with from the Button, as well. You should be thinking about charging the blinds a premium, and you want to start building the pot for your flush draw+ wheel draw(the AA might be a "bonus" element of the hand depending on the board, but it's not the sole component of the hand).

unfortunately though, even w/these strong hands you're not always going to get a great flop(and this is where the hard part comes in) but you should still be thinking about ways to win the hand---I'm betting this flop because there's enough money in the pot for me to attempt to win it!

I want to protect my Aces...I don't want to give a free card to something like bottom pair...I want to try and fold off hands such as: A2xx, A4xx, and even hands like A5xx or 23xx because if you did manage to get this hand to heads up, then hopefully that player won't have two low cards in their hand and thus, you'll be able to win half with A8 if your aces don't hold up.

If there's a bet and a raise to you? Or, if you get too many callers and the turn is really unfavorable for your hand? Then you can reassess that situation when it gets there.

Having said that, just because you raise preflop, doesn't mean that it's mandatory to plow through, although, the pot is bigger and it's something that you need to weigh out when you're contemplating that very question. Depends on your actual hand and/or how good your backdoor draws are, if any...the actual board, the amount of players, how often they tend to peel, how they perceive your bets...there's lots to consider. Knowing your opponents is extremely important in these(tough) spots.

Like I said, I'm brand new to this game and still getting comfortable. I'm definitely starting to get more comfortable raising preflop when I have even slight equity edges.

So, for example, if I had been on the BTN and several had limped, it would still be good to raise preflop to get more money in the pot when I have an equity edge in the hand AND if I get the blinds to fold then that's more dead money in the pot when I have an equity edge AND by facing 4-5 players instead of 5-6 players I increase my chances of winning something.

Am I thinking of that right?

This is the part of the game I think I need to work on. I'm playing very solid starting hands and have a good feel for that aspect, but I'm still breaking even/slight loser at the micro full ring games. I'm beginning to realize how important it is for me to plug the flop, turn, and river leaks. I'm realizing how much it kills you to piss away one big bet an hour. So I'm trying to plug those post-flop leaks.

I guess, in the lol .25/.50 full ring games, I'm inclined to give up on a flop like this hand. In these games everyone is calling with a 3rd-nut FD or a straight draw even with the FD out there, etc. I'm just not sure that I don't get myself into more trouble than it's worth on this type of flop--considering I really have nothing else going on in this hand. Not sure.

As played, I did bet the flop. I think I bet the turn when it was checked to me too. But maybe I'm being too aggressive in these very marginal situations in O/8? Again, I'm just not sure.

Yeah, roger that. I'm playing at Bovada. They only label you as Player 1, Player 2, etc., so it's harder to get a feel for your opponents, and of course, online they're constantly coming and going. I've been a winning LHE and NLHE player for 15+ years and feel I have pretty good "poker skills." I feel like playing in my B&M casino would be better for me. But I'm reluctant to play for real money in the 10/20 half kill game until I can beat the online .25/.50 game...

Edit: Thought I suspect the micro online games are harder games than the game in my casino. Still, I want to be confident before I put some real money on the table.

You should find after reading Zee's book that seeing the flop at all with that weak hand when playing that small isn't the max. You should not raise pre because none are likely to fold, 4 way + with this hand is no good. You missed the flush so fold off. Your low is countered fold,

This is not good advice imho.

It really doesn't matter if no one folds! The value of a nut flush draw + the wheel draw(and actually, an A3 is a lot different from an A4 or an A5, so it's not just a "wheel draw") is not only enough to warrant the raise, but our flush draw actually prefers it. I know it's difficult for just AA to hold up multiway but that's only one element of the hand. And, granted, hero may not have flopped a really good fit w/his hand, but that doesn't mean that the hand itself is weak overall, and, it's not good to be thinking: "Eh, I'm no good here I'm just gonna give up and fold." There's good money in that pot already, and, hero needs to put himself in all kinds of various spots and not just in the cinch ones especially when there's something to fight for. I hate telling someone to NEVER bet or to ALWAYS fold. That's just bad.

Yeah AA3 with a suit is strong enough that you don't care what your opponents do preflop. You just give them the most opportunities to make mistakes and punish their earlier mistakes and both you usually accomplish by raising.

I live NJ and do not play online for a number of reasons. However, I used to play on FullTilt years ago. FWIW - I found that the .25/.50 game and other micro games played very differently than the 10/20 game at my local B&M casino. The 10/20 game (which is what I usually play) was a little tighter and people don't call down every hand like they were doing on the micro games.

Just saying I found a big difference between micro online and real cash at casino.

I'm making a trip this weekend (my casino is about 3.5 hours away so it's normally a weekend trip for me). They normally have the O/8 10/20 with half kill running on Friday and Saturday night, so I should be able to get some hours in. Most of the people who play the game are the same people I play in the 1/3 and 2/5 NLHE games. They're pretty bad at NLHE, so I'm guessing they're pretty awful at O/8. I'll find out soon enough.

I've been playing O/8 for three weeks now. I'm feeling very comfortable with the game now and feel I'm likely a winner at the game. I've played about 90 hours of .25/.50 and .50/1.00 full ring on Bovada and have spent nearly as much time reading (books and the forum). When I started, I deposited $50 and ran through that in a week. I then deposited another $50 and ran through most of that in the second week. A week ago I deposited another $50 and have been pretty steady since then. I'm now up to $120 (up $70 in the last week). I feel like I've turned the corner and have really starting putting it all together and have a much better feel for the game now. I know I still have a ton to learn but I feel pretty confident about the game now.

I'm raising regardless of action preflop (AA3 with suited ace is extremely strong) and check/folding this horrific flop

doesn't matter how many limpers. you have a premium hand and should do your best to cap this hand pre. bet the flop to get out the bdld's (which tend to be the bigger part of limper's and cold caller's ranges). if you get raised, call 1 and you should be able to make a pretty clear decision on the turn.

never mind the **** i said inside the parenthesis. hogwash. complete hogwash.