Unofficial Stars 18-man SNG turbo Thread

[zuri1886]

Originally Posted by Barbiaux

Zuri good luck in your adventure without all of us. Also good luck trying to get any volume. As always I am just a little late to the party. I have 5 years of low low volume but and slightly down money. I learn how to make money and they ban us. FML

Yea i obv quit my challenge after that.
Im trying myself in NLHE for now. Played 250 18man sngs just yesterday. Since im a volume guy this seems the way to go. But they can be even more frustrating then Omaha8 ones i discovered for myself.
I basically had like 500 sng breakeven stretches so far where i got my money in with AA vs AK/99 or AK vs A3 like 97% of the time and just couldnt win one time. Had like 50 sngs in a row where i was sure that if i push my AT from the button at high blinds, either the small or Big Blind would wake up with AK and he did and busted me.

Not sure if that's standart, but caused me a lack of confidence. Anyone playing 18man NLHE turbo ones? Seems variance is waaaay higher then in Omaha8

[kbza666]

Originally Posted by zuri1886

Yea i obv quit my challenge after that.
Im trying myself in NLHE for now. Played 250 18man sngs just yesterday. Since im a volume guy this seems the way to go. But they can be even more frustrating then Omaha8 ones i discovered for myself.
I basically had like 500 sng breakeven stretches so far where i got my money in with AA vs AK/99 or AK vs A3 like 97% of the time and just couldnt win one time. Had like 50 sngs in a row where i was sure that if i push my AT from the button at high blinds, either the small or Big Blind would wake up with AK and he did and busted me.

Not sure if that's standart, but caused me a lack of confidence. Anyone playing 18man NLHE turbo ones? Seems variance is waaaay higher then in Omaha8

I've played 18man turbos NLH $6.5 and $16 and there is a lot of regulars... variance could be sucka bitch and u can not afford a ROI higher than 8% imo

[bakyka]

i played some 18-man turbo sng today. i usually play 9-man normal so i am not sure if i played well these hands.


Omaha Hi/Lo NL Tournament
PokerStars
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
$1.54+$0.21

Stacks:
UTG (1,093)
UTG+1 (792)
MP1 (1,570)
MP2 (2,405)
MP3 (1,920)
Hero (CO) (1,465)
BTN (1,585)
SB (1,190)
BB (1,480)

Blinds: 15/30

Pre-Flop: (45, 9 players) Hero is CO A A 7 Q
UTG goes all-in 1,093, 1 fold, MP1 calls 1,093, 2 folds, Hero goes all-in 1,465, 3 folds, MP1 calls 372

Flop: 8 4 J (4,068, 3 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: K (4,068, 3 players, 2 all-in)

River: Q (4,068, 3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: 4,068
UTG shows HI: two pair, Queens and Eights
8 Q 5 6
MP1 shows HI: a straight, Ten to Ace
10 10 8 A
Hero shows HI: a pair of Aces
A A 7 Q

MP1 wins 4,068 (net +2,603)

UTG lost 1,093
Hero lost 1,465



Omaha Hi/Lo NL Tournament
PokerStars
7 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
$1.54+$0.21

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) (1,455)
UTG+1 (1,260)
MP (1,977)
CO (1,455)
BTN (1,340)
SB (2,160)
BB (2,363)

Blinds: 25/50

Pre-Flop: (75, 7 players) Hero is UTG K A 7 A
Hero goes all-in 1,455, 3 folds, BTN goes all-in 1,340, 1 fold, BB calls 1,405

Flop: 7 9 4 (4,275, 3 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: 2 (4,275, 3 players, 2 all-in)

River: 3 (4,275, 3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: 4,275
BTN shows HI: two pair, Fours and Threes
J 3 J 4
BB shows HI: a pair of Aces; LO: 6,4,3,2,A
6 10 A A
Hero shows HI: a pair of Aces; LO: 7,4,3,2,A
K A 7 A

BB wins 2,195 (net +740)

Hero collects 57 (net -1,398)

[broken_jia]

i played some 18-man turbo sng today. i usually play 9-man normal so i am not sure if i played well these hands.

I would've played both hands the same way, both seem pretty standard. I feel like one of my leaks is not using the equity calculator enough, so I'll give you a mathematical reason for making the calls.

Hand 1:
VS Random Hands (Unrealistic Range):

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AhAs7dQd	43.19%	168,656	269,613	4,421	104,890	9,966
****	28.46%	96,345	160,723	7,229	100,571	10,995
****	28.35%	95,925	160,309	7,100	100,159	11,064

Realistic Ranges (Main pot Equity):

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AhAs7dQd	35.67%	137,451	259,539	13,990	17,837	12,418
20%	32.02%	100,860	172,307	11,815	110,282	54,129
AWB*	32.31%	97,350	145,960	20,215	133,127	56,811

Realistic Ranges (Sidepot Equity):

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AhAs7dQd	56.34%	219,741	387,005	35,531	54,328	23,171
AWB*	43.66%	144,174	177,464	35,531	228,568	23,171

Tight Ranges - assuming neither of them has AA (Mainpot equity):

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AhAs7dQd	36.76%	146,210	272,130	11,611	11,720	8,222
AWB*	30.49%	92,667	150,549	19,828	95,404	74,110
AWWT, AWWJ, AWJT, AQ2*, AQ3*, AQ4*, AKW*, AWWL	32.75%	96,496	154,415	16,597	133,901	74,033

Tight Ranges - assuming neither of them has AA (sidepot equity):

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AhAs7dQd	56.03%	227,536	393,811	23,613	40,701	17,018
AWWT, AWWJ, AWJT, AQ2*, AQ3*, AQ4*, AKW*, AWWL	43.97%	153,646	182,576	23,613	247,540	17,018

(Worst Case Scenario):

[/table]

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AhAs7dQd	23.65%	48,354	65,562	173,009	16,523	3,852
2345	37.25%	150,757	217,622	2,218	169,268	0
AdAc*d*c	39.10%	98,072	141,589	175,227	93,419	3,852

Conclusion:
Assuming the realistic ranges, its a +EV call (you need 30% for this to be a neutral EV call). Being a $1.75 game, you'd expect your equity to be between 35-40% against their ranges, so its worth the gamble.

Hand #2:
If this was a higher buyin, limping might be the better play from UTG to attract some dead money from other players so you can come over the top with a reshove. A lot of players will iso-raise 3BB + 1 BB per limper in position with A2X hands and call off a shove with like A29J in the first level (which is awful). However, with this being a $1.75 game and at 25/50, open shoving is fine if you think there is a change you'll get called based on the history from the first 2 levels.

I think raising would be the worst play here (besides folding) since there are many flops that you hate. If this was an AA2X or AA3X, i would probably make a standard 3x open here hoping to get some action. Most of the value in the non-AA+Wheel hands are their HU equity against other AWheelXX hands (a big part of your opponent's reshove/calling range), which is why you want to get it in pre if possible. The fact that you 2 callers is unfortunate, but you are probably a favourite in a pot for 3x your stack so its not terrible.

[bakyka]

thx for the analysis. it reinforced me i played well.
i made some calculations too realated to these hands and i found the same as you did: it is always +ev (especially at the 1.75 18-man turbos) to put all my chips preflop to the pot with aces (+low possibility) even at the early levels and even against two opponents.
the numbers and the odds are on my side but sometimes i feel like aces can never hold on PS...

i have some more qestions:

how do you guys play the AAxx hands on the early levels when xx are 2 high cards?

how do you play the same hand when you made the second table and its a 5-6-7 handed game?

is there a situation on the early levels when you fold AAxx hand when xx have weak low possibility (like 7J or 8Q )?

[broken_jia]

Originally Posted by bakyka

thx for the analysis. it reinforced me i played well.
i made some calculations too realated to these hands and i found the same as you did: it is always +ev (especially at the 1.75 18-man turbos) to put all my chips preflop to the pot with aces (+low possibility) even at the early levels and even against two opponents.
the numbers and the odds are on my side but sometimes i feel like aces can never hold on PS...

i have some more qestions:

how do you guys play the AAxx hands on the early levels when xx are 2 high cards?

how do you play the same hand when you made the second table and its a 5-6-7 handed game?

is there a situation on the early levels when you fold AAxx hand when xx have weak low possibility (like 7J or 8Q )?

From my experiences in the $1.75, $3.40 and $6.50, you get called soooo light in the early rounds that its worth the risk of running your AA (with no low) into AAX + Low. Especially at the 1.75 level, players will go nuts with KK or QQ (regardless of a low or not). Against all non-AA hands, you are never behind so I would never fold and probably open shove this hand preflop where I'd be okay taking down the blinds.

One thing I think you need to consider with these turbos is that blinds go up fast and you can't be open folding Aces hoping to get into better spots later in the game. The nature of O8 is that equities play pretty close preflop, so if you expect to get called by A2JX when you shove a A23K later in the tournament (100/200+ levels), you are only a 55/45 fav too (see below).

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
A23K	56.27%	188,067	298,655	54,230	101,303	199,422
A2J*	43.73%	131,029	247,115	54,230	17,229	199,422

I know you very familiar with the 1.40 KO non-turbo games where there is way less gamble, but in these I think you just have to stick it in early as a 60/40 fav hoping you scoop. If you get scooped, close the table and open up another, don't be discouraged that you run bad. I'd rather double up early than later when your stack has dwindled down to 1k or something and you'd only be up to 2100 with a double up.

Some more math for you:

AA + no low VS opponent's perceived ranges (fairly realistic range):

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AdAcBM	58.89%	268,248	399,173	23,544	48,395	5,735
AA**, A2**, As3sW*, KK**, QQWW, AWWB, AsKsW*, AsQsWW	41.11%	158,791	177,283	23,544	202,668	5,735

AA + no low (one big + one medium = no possible 2nd pair) VS AA with random low:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AABM	42.01%	85,855	124,419	349,480	26,527	19,710
AAL*	57.99%	112,646	126,101	349,480	241,328	19,710

AA + low (non-wheel) VS AA wheel:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AAL*	48.09%	77,091	121,909	358,401	93,663	50,163
AAW*	51.91%	84,511	119,690	358,401	148,344	50,163

[bakyka]

tx for answering and for the math lesson again.

[zuri1886]

finally back to grinding some Omaha8.

And look at this: 520pts in my first set. Looks like i should put in some volume to reach 100 this week

gl all

[GrimIsCool]

Are the 18s still reg city?

[broken_jia]

Originally Posted by GrimIsCool

Are the 18s still reg city?

maybe 20% of the players are regs in the $3.50s? And it goes up a bit in the $7s and $15s but nothing like 50% from what I've experienced.

[GrimIsCool]

Originally Posted by broken_jia

maybe 20% of the players are regs in the $3.50s? And it goes up a bit in the $7s and $15s but nothing like 50% from what I've experienced.

I haven't played much post BF, but pre BF I'd say it wasn't unusual to see around 10 decent regs playing a bunch of $15s. That's on top of the bad regs.

[broken_jia]

Originally Posted by GrimIsCool

I haven't played much post BF, but pre BF I'd say it wasn't unusual to see around 10 decent regs playing a bunch of $15s. That's on top of the bad regs.

I've identified like 5 solid regs from the limited $15s I've played and you usually won't see them playing at the same time. But then again, its hard to determine who the regs are when they rarely fill up (on average, 3-4 games per hour during peak, 5-6 on a weekend).

[manndl]

im running like xxxx in the 3,50$ this week but really lucky in the 7$
guess i will make 100 this week in each division.

ps:good thing im a bad semireg.

[Yoshiii]

there are still some crazy ass players at the $15s at stars !!

[broken_jia]

Originally Posted by Yoshiii

there are still some crazy ass players at the $15s at stars !!

crazy ass as in good or bad players? I could interpret that statement in both ways, lol.