I promise to read but please, from where did this thread come? Ty.

It was part of the thread entitled:

"What do you guys think about 2-3-x hands?"

Might be more immediately useful. The danger, more than just developing bad habits, is OP won't be thinking in a way that will make him a better poker player (and probably a better player in the game of life).

Let me try briefly to explain: I wonder what opponents are thinking when playing cards - and I believe that's a good way to approach the game. When someone bets or raises, I wonder why. I wonder if a bet or raise reflects the cards in someone's hand or if there's some other reason for it. (In the game of life, I wonder what people are thinking and sometimes if they're bluffing - and I think that's a good way to approach interactions with people).

Fine.

I made one when he first started playing Omaha-8. (I really have spent a lot of quality time thinking about this topic).

Hutchison's pre-flop hand chart is better than mine. I listed it somewhere in the FAQ for those who want to try that approach. And I posted a link to it for OP, with the qualification to which you seem to object.

Both Hutchison's pre-flop hand chart and mine are seriously flawed in my opinion.

I don't see myself ever leaving planet Earth. But I do sometimes venture into a game with opponents who are completely unknown to me. And I don't default to a "preflop hand chart" when making my preflop decision.

Well... I do hopefully have a fair idea of the relative value of Omaha-8 hands.

I think the Martians would also be adjusting to me. (I think my earth opponents do). Realizing this, and realizing first impressions are important, I might try to somehow put them on the wrong track. Hard for me to say exactly how I'd do that because it would depend on the actual cards I got dealt and also on how the Martians were playing.

In theory, I suppose a computer could be programmed to cover the various possibilities.

I don't think it's quite that simplistic.

Taken to an extreme, any time you gain an advantage of any sort over someone, you hurt them.

Like many decisions of life, what's "right" can be a dilemma.

Buzz

Some of my old English teachers would like the way you constructed that phrase (not ending it with a preposition). I generally try to do that too (not end a sentence with a preposition).

I wrote a response, post #24 if the following thread.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...hands-1210012/

Captain R questioned part of my response, and I responded to him. We soon went off on a tangent.

I don't know what a "train wreck" is. I assumed it was internet forum slang for going off on a tangent. And whatever "train wreck" means, I had to agree we had gone off on a tangent.

So I moved all the tangential posts into a new thread, this one. (Since I'm a co-moderator of this forum, I have access and permission to do that).

Buzz

Agree with both sides on this debate Preflop play depends on postflop play. The value of a hand preflop (much more so in O8 than in Texas) depends on what sort of flop connections it will make and how that will play out. This is of course affected by table conditions etc.

I have a feeling that when Captain R says "learn preflop play", he means learn a rote set of rules without understanding them. Perhaps the idea is to try and get some postflop experience without losing too much money, and then once you have postflop experience you can appreciate why the rules you learnt for preflop play are like that, and make your own adjustments.

I'm not sure if the golf swing analogy is good. A correct golf swing can be practised without knowing anything about post-tee play. In fact I prefer learning that way personally. However, in O8 you have to know about post-flop play before you can appreciate the finer points of pre-flop play.

preface: I am relatively noob.

My current approach is to make preflop as mechanical as possible (via a sort of preflop chart) such that I can free up my mental energy to do things like observe opponents and attempt to make read-based plays postflop.

I think if a noob were to first concentrate on observing and trying to read opponents, they would be making so many errors preflop that it would erase any edge gained by reading opponents.

Preflop o8 for a new hold'em player convert is like traversing a wasteland of mediocre and downright terrible hands that all appear "ehh good enough".

OK, i certainly haven't read every word on here. But i want to make this important point.

Well, you can play preflop mechanically to make it a 0 EV or marginally +EV game. But far far better is to learn why you're making preflop plays and how it relates to postflop.

Simple example: Virtually any A2 is playable. Why? Just because it's a hot-and-cold equity favorite? Because it wins lots of half-pots? Those are both true, but only part of the story.

A2 is so awesome because the nut low draw gives you sufficient reason to stay in the pot to catch something for high. That could be a wheel (sometimes backdoor). That could be a nut flush (sometimes backdoor). That could be something less predictable, like a terrible flush made from your sidecards or some bizarre 96 straight. Once my A2J9 scooped a nice pot with J9 top two and NL. Playing J974 trying to make top two and win half the pot is a good way to go broke, but being able to stay in for the low increased the value of my J9.

Grasp that concept and you'll be miles ahead of just mechanically playing "any A2" because the chart says so. A few others:

• Pushing / pulling (multiway) hands
• The focus of a starting hand
• High-only as drawing hands

...how long until the first major rules controversy? Over/under is 13 and a half minutes.

I don't believe using a preflop chart stops you learning to play preflop. Its a stepping stone that allows you to learn other aspects of the game. When the time is right, you can go back and fine-tune your preflop play based on what you have learnt.

Floundering every hand because you don't know how to start can lead to a lack of confidence and enjoyment in the game. Unless you are paying for a coach, it is not necessarily the case that you are going to learn from your mistakes either. The game is such that results are not necessarily a good indicator of strength of play, at least in the short term. Lets say you open raise A5KQ, K and Q the same suit, in the cut off and win the pot. So what? It proves nothing. Its going to take a very long time before you have any sort of decent sample with A5KQ, K and Q the same suit, folded to you in the cut off.

Its important to realise that somebody asking for a preflop chart does not mean that they intend to ignore learning the intricacies of playing preflop. Its merely a stepping stone to provide a more enjoyable and useful experience. There are plenty of other players at the table that aren't using our chart that we can observe as well.

I agree, but it's important to go into your hand-chart phase being open-minded about learning the principles underlying the hand chart. That way you're laying the foundation for future progress rather than just sticking to rote learning.