No worries I'm worse than you I am raising 1 #likeAboss #SpweyLeaksFTW

After reading...Raising Hand 1 is spewy and all but I think against thinking aggressive players folding is a clear mistake

Hand 2. I stick by my read but I would like to argue that we can improve and expect to get paid a ood chunk.. because though we have very few AQ in our range ..when the board pairs we have enough missed draws in our range that it would be hard to check-fold nut straights for ~1/2 pot ... repping flushes is kinda 'ambitious' but 'iiight' imo .. and I think adding all this up ...we get check-calls/free-showdowns on enough rivers to make this play +EV

hand 3. still think this is a call... but I said T is bad riv.. no T is good for us Ace is bad.

I've played against all these guys a lot.

You didn't say if it was NLO8 or PLO8? Or did you?

Anyway, if it's NLO8 and I'm assuming the table has only 3-4 people at it (or even up to 6), hand one is either fold preflop or shove all-in preflop.

You don't have a low worth anything, but you DO have a low of some sort. Therefore you want to be heads-up. Once it's all-in pre, you've done the work. Hope your Kings hold and their low doesn't come in. Pray for no AA hand or A on the board.

If you are playing PLO8, then bet the flop. You'll get the message straight away. If he checks, he's got a weak flush, a set, a straight or two pair and is just waiting to see what you do next. If he raises pot, he's got the nut flush.

Either way, if he calls or raises, you are done with the hand and it's check/fold unless the board pairs or unless his river bet is absolutely tiny (he's not going to bet anything you can beat).

As you played it, when he raises, you shove the river. I'm guessing Onmybike figured you had a weak flush and was hoping the board would pair. He's probably got QJ or QQ or 77. You'll probably have a higher fullhouse than him. If he has Quad Jacks, you just got coolered. Tough luck. But there's no way I'm folding and HE may have the nut flush or be trying to bluff you off your hand. He'll certainly do that.

I can see him holding the nut flush and trying to get you to bet out. The way you played your hand, that's how it would seem to me. He may not have been as worried about the Jack on the river as you think, because he would have expected you to bet KK or QQ or something on the flop.

Hand two: Foooooooold.

Easy fold. You don't have much money in there and he's got Q9 probably, AQ almost surely.

Hand three: What a mess. FOLD pre for gods sake, your hand sucks arse. Then (I assume) when you tried to bluff the flush on the turn (I assume it was a bluff because there is no way you would bet 2 pair on that board would you? And a ****ty two pair as well....) and Vandir piled in, well, he's got a better flush than the one you are representing.

And then the river comes in and you made a full house. Suck-out good luck there, shove all your money in and prepare to be berated in the chat for your awful suck-out good luck. Rub Vandir's money all over your face.

And Hand three.....why didn't you bet the flop?

Hand 3:

In a way this hand is not very good for analysis, since everything just "depends". What I'd like to point out though is that calling turn, folding river is not illogical in any way. Hero's range is still containing both KK and KJ after turn call, so I don't think it's very easy for villain to bluff river, especially the sizing he chose. I think he has KK/KJ way too often, so I like folding river. Folding turn is possible I guess too, but not sure if that's a good idea in general vs such tough opponents.

he also has some bluffs in there when he has blockers (QQ/AA) and we should be flatting the turn with AQxx no spades ... so our range is still uncapped here and when board pairs we can still expect to get paid to closely cover implied odds... obv he isnt check calling pot bets

we make full on turn... I actually dont like raising river because 3 puts less boats he can be value owning himself with.. if villain is fish or not able to fold flushes then I can understand a raise.. the way the board ran out even with with 3rd nuts and blocking absolute nuts.. we are at the very bottom of our raising range

Ah.....my mistake. I was flipping through the hands very quickly, didn't notice the boat on the turn.

Re-think for hand three:

FOLD pre. Terrible cards, shouldn't even be in the hand.

If you just HAD to play it, then bet the flop. You've got trips. Why aren't you betting that?

Since you didn't, and then decided to bet when your boat came in, I think Vandir has 33. He sees you having a little bet, he's just made a boat and thinks you are betting a flush. So he raises.

Then the 3 comes on the river, he's got quads. Fold the river. If he hasn't got quads, his boat beats yours. Although I can't see anything else he could have with the way the hand was played except 33. He would have bet everything else I think.

Unless you have been playing really really passively and have been folding to big pressure.

We have a 3, so V can't have quads (but Hero certainly can). That's why I said earlier that the 3 is actually a good card for Hero, so if he calls the turn then call the river. Nothing changed on the river except it actually gave Hero another combo that beats Villain.

The more I look at this, I think V has to have JK/KK (and probably the A to boot) so just fold the turn.

Some extremely comical posts by shane536 there.

I can comment on pre-flop in hand 3 though - I think both folding and calling are fine, but I'd recommend folding for most players, just because they are prone to make mistakes on later streets with marginal holdings. I consider myself skilled enough to make the call. Calling with a very wide range (say ~75%) is fine imo when closing the action and the price is 1bb.

On the flop in hand 3, I don't have a lead-range to that board, be it optimal or not.

hand 1: i'm calling, especially for such a small raise... although i don't think his sizing looks very bluffy, but i guess he could value raise worse.

hand 2: i fold and don't really think too much of it.

hand 3: ugh, i'm probably folding, but i don't think calling is awful.

LOL! Yeah, of course we had a three. Man, that's what not going back and reading the damm thing again does huh? Wasting everyone's time. Glad you got a laugh out of it

O.K, let me have another look.....hang on.....

FOLD pre. Terrible cards, out of position. Yuck.

Then bet the flop. Why didn't you? It's possible that because you didn't bet the flop, he put you on a weak flush when the three hit. He may have the nut flush (but still be behind without knowing) and be trying to push you off. You may have inadvertently trapped him.

Either way, if you aren't going to fold the turn, then you may as well call the river. What has changed? Either he's trapping you, or you are trapping him. Probably I would have put a little raise in on the turn and folded to a shove.

I think he's probably got KK or JK though. Nasty choice, but you kind of did it to yourself.

Look buddy, why don't you read previous posts? I've answered to every question you ask.

I think that everyone may give their opinion irrespective of how strong or experienced players they are. However, reading your posts remind me of someone trying to give a lecture to his father on reproduction. I suggest you take a slightly more humble approach in the future and most importantly, read all the previous posts before chiming in with dilettantish arguments.

Fair enough, and I do apologise for not reading carefully enough TWICE. Honestly.

I agree with you that calling turn/folding river was not a bad thing as played. But I HAVE played Vandir quite a bit, and he's pretty aggressive, as is Onyourbike. Vandir is bluffy-er though.

The only reason I said that calling the river may be o.k is simply because you didn't bet the flop. Very very humbly, and honestly not trying to start any sort of fight, but personally, I would have bet the flop.

That's all. Dilettantish? Dunno. But the turn can bring a straight or a flush right? And ON THE FLOP you are probably ahead. You are worrying about KK or KJ at the river? You could have found out about that stuff two streets ago. Without trying to teach my father about reproduction at all, people don't slow play stuff that much in O8, especially PLO8.

All my comments so far are geared to the idea that because you didn't bet the flop, Vandir probably doesn't put you on a Jxxx hand. So if he made his boat on the flop, he will wait til the turn hoping someone catches a piece. But he may not think you have a fullhouse at all right? He may put you on a weak flush.

I apologise (seriously) for not reading the post carefully enough, but if it was the other way around, I know Vandir would have bet that flop because of how he plays. He probably expects you do do the same. That's all, no aggro here.

Np
Ok, probably you have played them in tournaments?
I understand that you like to bet the flop. If I would ever bet any hands on that flop with that pre-flop action, I would bet this hand. The implication of not having a lead-range there is that my range is stronger also on future streets, something that you don't seem to take into account.
Maybe too harsh word, but I couldn't think of anything better. Is "beginner-like" a word? Amateurish is, but I don't like it.
Yes I think he very often has KK/KJ and I think he would play them very often exactly like this (check flop, check turn). So I don't really agree with your last sentence.
I can guarantee you that after I call the turn he must worry about KK/KJ, because those hands I would play exactly like this, always, and I'm pretty sure he knows it as I would consider it to be the most standard way to play those hands in these stakes. There are some weaker hands in my range too, of course.
I don't really think that is correct, but I admit the possibility. I also think there is a possibility that it's a multi-user account.

"Ok, probably you have played them in tournaments?"

Sometimes I see them in tournies of course, but mostly no, ring games. HU or 6 max.

"I understand that you like to bet the flop. If I would ever bet any hands on that flop with that pre-flop action, I would bet this hand. The implication of not having a lead-range there is that my range is stronger also on future streets, something that you don't seem to take into account."

Certainly I have things to learn about the game. You say you WOULD bet the hand, but you didn't. Right? I understand why you didn't and that's why O8 is so cool, cause we all play differently. But if there are things I'm not taking into account, maybe the same is for you too?

"Maybe too harsh word, but I couldn't think of anything better. Is "beginner-like" a word? Amateurish is, but I don't like it."

Dillatantish is much more classy sounding than "beginner-like" or "amateurish" thanks.
I'll stick with Dillatantish because it makes me sound like a rich 18th century European prince.

"I can guarantee you that after I call the turn he must worry about KK/KJ, because those hands I would play exactly like this, always, and I'm pretty sure he knows it as I would consider it to be the most standard way to play those hands in these stakes. There are some weaker hands in my range too, of course."

Well, with all due respect, if you played the hand perfectly why did you post it then? You did what you did, he acted as he should, everything worked out fine right?

"I don't really think that is correct, but I admit the possibility. I also think there is a possibility that it's a multi-user account."

No disagreeing from me.

I'm not sure if you understand much of what I say. I don't bet in that spot, ever. You want to have a leading range there, which is fine, too. I don't know why you think it matters that much either way. If there are things I'm not taking into account, go ahead and present them.

I don't understand. I didn't say I played it perfectly, and if I think I did play it perfectly, why shouldn't I post it? On the contrary, why would I post a hand where I think I made a clear mistake?

I post hands so that we can discuss them. Like I said earlier, this hand is not very good for analysis, since everything just "depends".

Now this is borderline Buzzism.

results from hand 3?

Hero folded river.

Ya I agree that folding against most villains is probably best but I do think against some villains there is some merit to calling. I have very little experience playing against mnstrkll. Like for example If I were in villains shoes I would be 3 betting A1023 with spades from the SB against a button raise and some of the time I would be just check calling on the flop to not get blown off of my back door equity against agressive players and would be betting this turn although I would probably choose to go for a bigger bet sizing.

Agreed, for example AT23+bdfd I'd expect him to check-call flop often. I do not know how often he'd turn it into a bluff on this turn, but I agree that it is a good play.

Calling it down certainly does have merit.

I don't play PL or NL O8, so maybe I am missing something obvious.
But why is everyone minraising preflop?