I'm going for SilverStar this month, thanx 2 badugi.
during the slow badugi periods, i've been frequenting .50/1.00 and 1.00/2.00 fixed-limit omaha/8, with the simple goal of getting breakeven in cash, and mondo vpp's, kinda hit-n-run after 2-4 orbits and such
[or at least until the badugi games resume normal insanity, usually takes no more than an hour]

[yeah shouldn't be difficult... but i'm an old-school one-table guy].
i'd like 2 get a tad closer to breakeven [or higher] in these sessions.
I have Ray Zee's hi-lo book [bought it fer the stud/8 part], so i have a clue,
kindasorta... enuf 2 bail OTF when 2 high cards are out OTF and i'm playing 4 low cards, etc.

My questions:
>what kind of ranges of hands for early position/ late position?
>what to call raises with PF?
>I've been raising very sparingly-if at all. took down a couple of HU bluffs, but generally going weak-tight PF.
[avg/flop has been running 40% of field] Wrong style here?

Certainly not busto from this, but my performance has still been embarassing.

Any advice/insults welcome.

$pike

PS... only 695 vpp's left to go.

well done...looking forward to the continued part.

Thx so far lucius.
some of those avoidables have been avoided in LATE POS. .
btw... how r thingz in Changle thes days?
$pike

it doesnt matter full ring limit 08 1/2 the rake will eat you alive!

.25/.50 pl 08 is better.

1-31-2011, 09:56 PM, current quote/disclaimer by author, LUCIUS VARENUS LIMIT POO FLINGING OMAHA EIGHT

OK hi.

Full Ring Ranges

I will start from UTG and go clockwise.

In EARLY POSITION, the first three positions at a 10 handed table (2 at a 9 handed table), the optimal range of hands you will play like in most poker games should be small. You should extremely rarely not have an Ace in your hand. The only times you would not have one would be to mix up your play (do this about 5% of the time, like if the time is between the beginning of the 58th minute and the final second of the current hour of the day) and when you have a hand that must be very similar to KKQQds (containing at least a pair of Kings, four big cards ten or above except trips). Super optimally, you wouldn't even play four big cards UTG ever. You're looking for premium drawing hands only. EP is not a good place to be, and chances are you'd do well to make a long term profit even UTG+2. So you want to avoid the losses you will incur from this position by playing the least amount of hands that you can.

An example of the hands you are looking for in EP:
AA23, AA2, AA3, AA4, A234, A23K, A23x, any two low cards with an A2 (suited or double suited makes it even better, preferably without an eight or seven), A2KK, A2KQ, A2KJ, A2QT, A2QQ, A2JJ, A2TT. There are more than this, they are the best ones though and you'll increase/decrease the range depending on your style and the table dynamic (wider for a tight passive game, thinner for any loose game or aggressive game)

What you should be avoiding in EP:
A4xx (even ds), 23xx, 234x, four big cards, ANY hand with a nine in it, A2+junk, A3+only slightly reasonable sidecards at best eg A36J offsuit, four low cards with no ace, middle cards, big pair with two low cards, big pair with junk, three broadway and a dangler.

In MIDDLE POSITION you can open up a bit. It becomes OK to limp in with high only hands and you can play your EP range plus some junky A2/A3 hands. I would start also to play very good A4 hands too, the best one I think is A456 (suits not important!), second is A45K. If everyone in EP has folded you can think about raising to buy the button. If you are thinking of doing this and its your preference to raise when you play, make sure you do it with A456 as much as you do with AA23, so that the late position player doesn't try to take advantage of you. Raising should depend on the table dynamic and your playing style. Do you prefer multiway action or heads up or three way pots? Limp for the former, raise for the latter. You can make money in middle position, this is why its safer to raise it up than from early position (there are less players in position against you to outplay you potentially). I would also play a few excellent 23xx hands. These would be severely limited to hands very similar to K:K32 and 2346 - in other words, double suited pair (JJ or better) with 32, or 234 with a five or six. These lower quality hands without the Ace should be at least suited to the highest card, double suited is highly preferable, and never four of the same or three of the same or rainbow. Your range should tighten or loosen depending on whether any players have entered the pot yet (tighter per player in the pot until you) and whether there was a raise yet (tighter with a raise, looser without), you will tend to need a stronger hand to play per player because its more likely you'll go multiway and also there is a tendency for the EARLY POSITIONplayer to have a good hand, unless you have a read on him that says otherwise. It is unwise to flat call an early position player's raise, you should try to 3 bet him and buy the button and get it heads up in position against him. However you need a very strong hand for this, hopefully with two aces. Bear in mind the EARLY POSITION player usually has a pair of Aces when he raises unless he is either a wild man or a very good player, so you will often get it capped, in which case you dont mind since you prefer to have more money in the pot when you're about to do your utmost to outplay someone whose hand is naked .

Examples of hands you might want to play in MIDDLE POSITION:

Your EARLY POSITION range, A26T, A36J, A2Q9s, A2J8ds, A379, KK32, 2345, 2346, A45Q, A456, A3+pair, A2+any pair, A4+>TT, A29x

Examples of hands you should avoid in MIDDLE POSITION:

QJ32, 356Ks, 245Ks, A5xx, JT98ds, middle cards, A4+low pair fours to nines, 32+low pair, 3456ds, the obvious junk hands from EARLY POSITION, rainbow junk A2/A3 or four same suit.

In LATE POSITION, everything is wonderful. It is the most profitable place to be and more than half your money should come from here. Your range should be even wider than MIDDLE POSITION and should certainly include some of those hands mentioned in the example of foldthems aforementioned for MIDDLE POSITION. The most common action for you to make in LATE POSITION MUST be RAISE! No question. Even if you have AA23 and it goes call, call, call, raise, fold, fold (sly other thread THAT MUST NOT BE NAMED reference). You will steal blinds. You will make continuation bets. You will use position bets. You will make free card plays postflop. You will outplay people. You will have the most information at the table. You will isolate people. You will bluff your bloody arse off. You will make money. The strangest thing about this position though is the extent to which your range evolves based on the action up to you and the players in the pot (numbers and styles), and whether there was a raise. You will learn eventuallythings like when there is 3 calls and a raise you would dump 3456 all day, but if it was folded to you, or maybe even the cutoff opened, you would raise. If everyone limped you would learn that 23 with anything, even 2345ds, aint worth even one of our dear Majesty's brown pennies. You would learn that with lots of players in there is a good chance middle to high cards will flop. You will learn to fold even A2xx for a raise if the guy is a rock. On the button you can be super loose or super tight, and thanks to all the information you have preflop, you will know which one is appropriate. Its something you will pick up eventually from "feel" rather than any methodical approach however.

Examples of hands you might want to play in LATE POSITION:

ALL of your EARLY POSITION and MIDDLE POSITION hands. It dont matter if its suited. If its A2, it gooooot. If its A3, it gooooot. If its A4, it gooooot. And 23? Well, not so much of the junky 23 like 23J8. Make sure your 23 is suited to the high card, even if 3 of the same suit. But you'll pick that up. Now you can play 3456. Now you can play 234-anything. You can play ANY high hand (ok so still try and avoid the nines). And even raise with those! Me so crazy in LATE POSITION. 23+two high cards is good. Even QQ46 is worth a steal.

Examples of hands you dont want to play in LATE POSITION:
Middle cards, it depends, never middle cards, 3 high+dangler (this is bad any position), 4567 (too loose), high pair plus junk, 2 high plus two middle. In short, dont play junk hands in any position unless its the endgame of a tournament with high blinds.

In THE BLINDS, play tight. Really tight. Play only your EP range. The fact is you are going to lose most of your money preflop from these two seats, and if you are a losing player its because of two reasons: You play too loose and bad in the blinds, and you dont make enough money in other positions to compensate for losing money in the blinds. Many many many players call with anything. Its wrong. Remember, pot odds dont matter when you're drawing dead. The money in the pot no longer belongs to you. Some players say that it is OK to raise in the blinds, and at 6 max I think it is fine. But at full ring, it is regularly not good because players have already come in and they have position on you. Obviously raise with very very very strong hands. Keep it down though. In my opinion you should play as tight in the small blind as you do in the big blind. If you are playing to make as much money as possible, you should follow my advice, but if your reasons are more recreational, I think its fine to play some more hands than this. In this spirit I would play many of the late position hands but with a big difference - postflop. If playing this way I think you need to hit a strong flop, hit it big, half of which is knowing what is a great flop and what is only mediocre or worse. To make money, pay no attention to steals unless the game is really tight and there is one button guy who is wild (fold to the tight players raises). There's three plays you should commonly make postflop from the blinds. In order of frequency, check/fold, lead out, check/raise. Mostly you will check fold the flop unless you flop big. If you flop big, lead out. If there was a raise preflop and the player was to your immediate left, checkraise. If not to your immediate left, lead out. When you flop a big hand in early position you should try to maximise the amount of callers you will get. Leading into a guy who raised preflop and is likely to raise again on the flop is terrible, you want to check, have him bet, the whole table call, and now trap the whole table for two bets! This applies to a lot of poker games, but I use it most in O8.

ANY QUESTIONS?

1-31-2011, 09:56 PM, current quote/disclaimer by author, LUCIUS VARENUS

Please delete/edit the previous posts, post #7 is my final post for my Hand Ranges Preflop article

[Edit:] What was originally post #7 ends up being post #5 when two previous posts are deleted. - Buzz [end edit]

ty lucius, i plan on bookmarking this.
not that my destiny is to make the poo-flinging my primary game,
but it will cover the slow spots in badugi nicely.
$pike

great advice.

thanks, i hope everyone on the forum finds this useful, i put quite a bit of work in, like more than two hours.

certainly did.
I doubled up last nite in 1/2- from 40.00 to 80.00!- in 2.5 hrs.
also won 0.75 today! i know, consistency, but it's gravy on top of the fpp's.

as a special thanks, i posted my "FPP schedule"
>cross-referenced from the rake schedule @ Stars.

This shows you how many fpp's to expect in a given size pot
in a given size game.I think they reduce the rake for <= 4 players, and that applies. I just check the "Avg.Pot" amount for a table before i sit in. Doesn't hurt to check "Plyrs/Flop %" either... greater than 40%, letusgogogogogo!

Note: if nothing else, you gotta figure ANY .50/1.00 limit game with an
avg. pot >8.00 is gonna be juicy

I really really appreciate the post.

Its worth mentioning that this doesn't specifically apply to $1/$2, although it of course does work there, I would say that for the most part it is appropriate for all levels.

In no way does it apply to 6max or with the exception of one particular reference tournaments however, that is a whole different kettle of FISH [/obvious pun].

It's worked OK in .50/1.00 as well.
since i only dabble[or should i say dribble] in .01/.02 for P/L, it would be ok there. i guess.

I remember doing stuff like this a couple of times. At $.50/$1 I remember twice I went from $20 to $100 in a night one-tabling on Stars back in Summer, and $700 to over $800 (was sat with whole b-roll) in $1/$2 on Full Tilt in October. Cwagon can vouch for me on the Full Tilt one, he was sat at my table, we were chatting all night on the table (he plays as DeuceFlopalow).

By the way, if you sit with your whole bankroll one-tabling, its immensely motivational. For me anyway. I might suffer from Accountant's Syndrome though. Like I have quota's to meet etc.

i might do this occasionally w/ 100+ buy-in, to help keep track of roll. But I like to keep some stashed for table changes.
As regards motivation, I've been getting plenty from my mentors in a nearby forum:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/21...onents-360853/

Cliff's notes: bet the crap out of your pat 6 badugi's

A couple comments on the big post. First good work Lucius, but there are a few things that I would add.

In ep you can limp with A3 and 23 hands if the game is very passive... which is often the case at low limits. Still, you'll want to have something else working with the hand, and be prepared to drop it postflop if you don't have a nut draw.

This will be controversial, but watch out if very tight players limp in front of you. I would even go so far as to fold A hand like A J 7 3 if a player limped who will only play A2xx A3xx and AAxx hands. In these spots you'll often find yourself shooting for the 2nd nut low with one of your nut outs (the 2) gone. When you do have a draw to the best low you'll often be drawing for a quarter along with the tight player. That said, if you changed the 7 to a 4 and the hand was double suited I wouldn't hesitate to play this hand.

In a loose game you'll still generally need the nuts to win, so I would still play really tight in lp. When the game becomes tighter, however, you can then go ahead and do lots of stealing from late position.

In a loose full ring game raise with almost anything on the button or in the small blind when everyone else has folded to you and the remaining players are tight. They'll still give you credit for having the type of strong hand that you'll usually raise with preflop, and they probably won't adjust their hand ranges properly even if they do suspect you're stealing. You can grab the blinds or pick up the pot on the flop nearly every time in this spot.

Lucius touched on this, but shorthanded hand ranges change a lot. The A654 ds hand that he mentioned isn't so hot in a game where you'll need the nuts to win, but in a tighter game the hand is quite good because it can make decent lows and flushes, and you still may be able to scoop if you make a low straight because you'll have an okay low working with it.

Moneyline said: "In a loose game you'll still generally need the nuts to win"

Doesn't this go against conventional wisdom? Almost everything I've read (and experienced to a certain degree) says that the opposite is true. In a tight game, you are more likely to need nuts to win because the other solid players at the table should generally not be drawing to anything less than nut low and close to nut high w/possible redraws. On the other hand, with a generally lose game, you won't necessarily need the nuts since your weak opponents will consistantly be drawing to non-nut hands.

I've seen these types of players drawing to 3rd/4th nut low and joke highs... like 9 high flush, 2 mid pair on a flush/straight board, etc. So, this being the case, wouldnt you want to loosen up a bit?

Now, one thing I will acknowledge is what I call "The Donk Effect". Meaning, when enough completely clueless players are in a full ring game and are calling the majority of pots down to the river, the chance of 1 of them hitting a long-shot nut hand is multiplied since there would typically be 3-4 of them seeing the river. This in particular has just killed me at times because it's impossible to tell what kind of crap they are holding. When you're HU against them, you will generally have a large advantage, but with 3-4 in the pot, the inevitable suckout seems to strike much more often.

Here's what I mean. In a tight game a hand like AQT4 on a flop of Q 8 6 heads up in position against a tight player is an excellent spot. You most likely have the best high, the best high draw, and if high cards an A or 2 comes you'll take the whole pot down if he has an A2 hand. If you happen to be up against a hand like AAxx, you still have outs to both the high and low. In a loose game with 5 players in the pot, however, this same hand with the same board sucks ass. Top pair top kicker is probably not the best high hand and even if it is it's unlikely to hold up. There's a good chance someone holds a better flush draw, and even if they don't you are very likely drawing to win only half the pot... you are also more likely to be up against trips or two pair which will take away some of your outs. Finally, your 4th nut low draw has almost no chance of being best, and the rare times that it is you'll be drawing for just a quarter.

Well, I do agree with the latter half of your statement. That hand against a multi-way pot will get killed frequently. However, I'm just not seeing it as far as it goes against a tight player. You may well have the best high after the flop, but how often will that stand up, especially against a tight player, who's range will most likely give him much better draws than you 4th nut flush and 4th nut low draws. Frankly, I don't see how this is even playable in this situation, and it's very far removed from what I would call excellent. At minimum, you have to know your low won't be good... a tight opponent will likely have A2 or A3. And IF you're lucky enough that he doesnt hold AA, he's proabbly got a better draw to high than you're 4th nut flush.
Now granted, I'm not claiming to be an expert, but everything I've read and experienced tells me to seek out players like this that are drawing to the 4th nuts and pounce on them. I consider myself a tight player and I would salavate at the thought of going up against this hand, since I would almost certainly have it beat or drawing way better the vast majority of the time.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?

If a good tight player was giving you action on that flop he would have you beat in terms of equity for sure! If a good tight player didn't have you beat, he would've folded his nut low draw already.

To anwer your question, at least one half will stand up more often than not and you'll frequently scoop. You have a good hand and you can use your positional advantage to take down a lot of pots uncontested. Your tight opponent's range includes hands like 4 coordinated high cards and A3 hands that he'll likely fold, and if he hangs in there with a better bare low draw he's A) probably drawing to only half the pot, and B) still only going to make his low about half the time.

You are giving your opponent way too much credit here. In a multiway pot the conglomeration of opponents makes it likely that somebody holds a better low draw, and somebody else holds a better flush draw, and somebody else has you beat for high now. However, it's highly unlikely that just one player has you beat all those ways.

If you're salivating I suggest you reevaluate your diet. A bare nut low draw here is a massive dog, and a nut low draw with counterfeit protection and no high is a 60/40 dog. Even if you add a pair to the nut low draw with counterfeit protection you're still a dog. Perhaps most importantly, you're out of position and can get maneuvered out of the pot when you hit something marginal that would be good enough to win one way if you were able to check it down. Finally, if you're really so tight that you're guaranteed to have the best hand here, then you are playing way too tight because that means you're throwing away all A3 hands, most A2 hands, and a fair number of A23x hands.

1/2 limit seriously ?

We digressed into talking about tight games in general where you can steal a lot of pots from late position.

Hello Lucius.

Your post is about the best I have found around the Internet on this topic. And I may say that I have read a lot.

There is practically no web site I could find whose main topic was PLO8 that I have no visited. (Except for 2+2, obviously ), I came here looking for info on Poker Tracker Omaha.

I knew that I have several flaws in my game. Now, with your help I have been able to spot some of the major holes I have.

I am gathering some information here and in other sites to configure my Poker Tracker Omaha to statistically prove what is my main hypothesis:

I play poorly in EP: Too many hands.
I have a lack of aggression in MP and LP.

In order to prove this (which by the way is quite obvious to me right now) I will have to learn how to configure a set of starting hands in Poker Tracker in order to analyze my game in different positions, but that is subject of another topic.

So thank you very much for not thinking that helping the newbie is –EV.

I acknowledge you for this post.

I agree as well, there is a huge amount of common sense to Lucius's starting hands. As a guideline i have found this to be invaluable. Once you realize how much more info you get in LP and how much you lose with A2 in EP you are well on the way to at least reducing the reloads. I personally need a lot more work on my postflop play ( gotta stop chasin those half pots ) but i think that just takes a lot more experience.