Hi guys, these marginal spots always get to me and I'm not sure about the right answer even after the fact. Would appreciate some input on what to do on the turn against a readless random. Also, is this an open pre UTG at a passive table?

Thanks




[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $75 Buy-in (50/100 blinds) Pot Limit Omaha H/L Tournament, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #36917041

SB: 10,172 (101.7 bb)
BB: 12,800 (128 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): 5,443 (54.4 bb)
UTG+2: 4,778 (47.8 bb)
MP1: 30,029 (300.3 bb)
MP2: 12,409 (124.1 bb)
MP3: 8,465 (84.7 bb)
CO: 4,715 (47.2 bb)
BTN: 5,360 (53.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T Q A 4
Hero raises to 300, 3 folds, MP3 calls 300, 4 folds

Flop: (750) T J 6 (2 players)
Hero bets 490, MP3 calls 490

Turn: (1,730) 7 (2 players)
Hero

Yeah it's a tough spot, the kind where you probably just have to suck it up and embrace some variance. Checking is going to frequently induce a bet to which you can't fold and have little fold equity when check raising. It will make the hand easier to play though so I don't hate check raising the turn if your opponent bets and then you are happy enough to keep the pot smaller if he decides to check behind. Betting the turn is also fine but undoubtedly high variance (doesn't seem like you'll have a lot of immediate fold equity). Any reasonable size >= half pot than you bet on the turn will force you to call a turn shove, so you might as well pot in my book to try to make them fold. You'd then have to be all in of a large number of rivers after potting the turn except for a connected club (5c,9c, some others). I would tend to just bet the turn.

I could see the argument to bet the turn smaller to induce some river bluffs. Players will still bluff frequently if you pot the turn as well. You should plan on check-calling most rivers that pair the board and don't bring the 3rd club as players seem to over-bluff these spots and are not value bet something like aj frequently.

Preflop I would tend to limp unless it was actually a tough table in which case my standard would be to raise 2.5x. Folding isn't really a mistake if it's that tough of a table but in general I think it's just on the edge of strong enough to open with this stack.

pretty much what he said.

Im curios, clocks, why you would rather raise pre on a tough table? Doesnt that open you up to being 3b more seeing as tougher opponents are more aggressive? Do you just want to rep a great hand and take the initiative by raising vs a limp?

For me, with this hand, its probably 75% limp 25% raise depending on how I feel about the table dynamics. Although I could just be pulling those numbers out of my ass. I do like to limp a lot though just because its a pain in the ass getting 3b out of position.

As far as the hand played I would def continue to fire on the turn here there is no way I take a passive approach with nut draws oop, especially with this stack size.

Raising pre is fine. As played, this can be a pretty good spot to checkraise, we don't really mind too much if it is checked back. bet size on the flop seemed a bit awkward to me as well

Edit: disagree about not having fold equity on the turn.. bet bet lines are fine in general but here I think the stacks and initial sizing make check raising really strong, also when our bet is called we have tough decisions about whether to triplebarrel and also make guesses about our lows being good

thanks guys.

For my sizing, this board is imo not a good board for the pfr caller's range (or any of us'). My logic was I didn't want to price out hands I dominate like pair+lower hearts etc. and thought that the other parts of his calling range like J6 JT 6T AJKL type hands are fairly insensitive to our sizing i.e. they're going to call, so I did want to do some pot control too while getting value from the hands I dominate. Could be wrong to not pot here though - I'm not sure how often villains are calling AJ2 type hands but I do want them out

My thought process on the turn was that I wanted to give AJ, some two pairs a chance to fold with another barrel, since I think a set and top 2 may have raised us on the flop. I'm not sure what his likely range is but I'd guess there are more of those marginal made hands than AJw, ATw, ATlhlh sort of hands.

I think looking back I would check and probably raise if bet. As you guys said it's actually a pretty outcome if he checks it back and we can realize our equity for free. also being able to CRAI makes the hand play much easier, but in terms of optimality I'm not sure how we are doing vs his bet/GII range OTT

Hero bets 1,730, Villain calls 1,730

River (5,190)
5

Hero has 2,923 left and thinks yuck

I'd definitely fold pre, perhaps even in a cash game. Betting the flop is not mandatory in any manner btw. Turn I like c/r best, but potting is ok. River need to shove, ul.

You just bet too much on the turn. Why would you want a fold at this point? Control the pot, control the hand. You lost control by commiting your stack on the turn.

Think about your stack size. A lesser bet still leaves room for a shove on the river so commiting as many chips as you did on the turn is not necessary IMO.

I cant help but think that a lot of the advice given is more suitable to a cash game than an extremely soft mtt.

To elaborate we raise a marginal hand hit a marginal flop with good potential but we do not need to be putting ourselves in a situation where we go broke here. In fact maybe our number one priority is not to go broke here.

Flop is pretty great, not marginal.

Can we not just limp here in a full ring MTT, especially at a soft table? Our hand is marginal, but easy to play post flop, even if we are OOP. I feel like a lot of players in these PLO/PLO8 MTTs fear the UTG limp/re raise possibility, so they limp behind even some very strong parts of their range. This allows us to see a cheap flop with the weaker end of our imo.

I just feel like when we open UTG with this hand in full ring, then we will:

A) get flatted multiway a lot of the time, thereby making us play a bloated pot with a marginal hand OOP

B) get 3 bet by the stronger ends of players ranges and be forced to fold a value hand pre

C) get 3 bet by the stronger ends of players ranges where we call the 3 bet and are forced to play a bloated pot with a marginal hand OOP

Its not marginal but its not great

I prefer the open with a bigger stack or double suited. However I don't hate it. We can limp with this hand but if we do we have to limp with some of the top of our range. I actually think that hand is generally tricky to play post flop but runs quite well in terms of all in equity.

When you are rather far from the money, MTTs are much closer to cash games than they are to SNGS. My only priority early in an mtt is to gain chips in +EV spots. If I lose then I go play other mtts, sngs or go do something else.

A definite concern but I think better players will have fewer reservations about potting a bunch of limpers or a single limper with something like aj25ds than 3-betting an UTG raise with these stacks. Also you do risk giving some information away about your range when you limp UTG (which then could require limping very strong hands for balancing which is not something I'd do). Against weaker players I don't care as much about giving away information as they seem to not care either. Weaker players, or at least more passive players, will be more tempted to just limp behind with their worse AAs if we limp but may be tempted to pot if we raise and get a slew of callers behind us.

I like you clocks but you have quoted me a lot to basically state the obvious. Of course we are looking to find +ev spots and chip up and win mtts.

I guess I mean to say that even close and high variance spots should not be passed up just because "tournament life" or "hey I'm Phil Hellmuth and better than everyone else so find a better spot" . They would have to be exceedingly close. Plus my 1st statement there isn't necessarily obvious. I can't say definitively, but a decent rule of thumb is the value of the chips you stand to gain by doubling up are worth about 95% of the value of your starting stack in most standard MTT formats. Where as in a typical 9-man SNG it's closer to 80-82%. This does not account for the value of having a larger stack later in the tournament however. I got these numbers from a rather simple simulation that just has players randomly flip stacks, so take it with a grain of your favorite granular substance

Helpful discussion, appreciate it guys

As for the result, I shoveled the rest of my money in, thinking I don't want like a KQJ:hh or something to accidentally get half or, however unlikely it is, give the person a chance to fold 2 pair. I do think checking has some merit if it's later in the tournament and hope for a show down?

• At a full table, the main feature of the hand is, for me, the suited ace. And that A-Q combo also provides sufficient high card strength.

• A secondary feature, for me, is the ace-four low draw. However, I greatly prefer counterfeit protection for my low draws, and this low draw has no counterfeit protection.

• Third, this hand has no middle cards, which is nice, although a ten is a marginal middle card, not really much better than a nine.

But despite the flaws, T Q A 4 is, for me, a playable starting hand.

When you have combos like the hearts that make the nuts when they hit, you like opponents who will pay you off with non-nut hearts. Knocking out opponents, if they will fold weak hands to pre-flop raises, is contrary to that purpose.

On the other hand, for your ace-four low draw combo, you like to knock out opponents playing deuce-trey hands, and possibly very tight opponents will fold ace-trey hands to a pre-flop raise.

Since the A-Q combo, your best combo, plays better against more opponents, while the A-4 combo, your second best combo, plays better against fewer opponents, what are you to do... raise or limp?

I personally like to get out of the hand cheaply when it doesn't look like the board will be favorable. Although the A-Q combo is your best two-card-combo, it loses most of its oomph when the flop has no hearts or only one heart. And although A-4 may win for low, it fizzles when the board has an ace or a four. I prefer to brave the possibility of being up against a deuce-trey-combo, and then either get out cheaply when the flop has an ace or a four and no hearts, or push it when the flop has a deuce or a trey or hearts. Bottom line, unless I have some special other reason for raising pre-flop, I don't generally raise pre-flop with this starting hand.

OK. You're out of position. Unless you make your heart flush, play will probably become awkward for you after the turn (because you're out of position).

And now play is awkward for you. If your opponent is drawing for low, he probably has a better low draw than you. And if he's playing for high, he's ahead if he simply has a hand with a jack or a hand that made two pairs with this flop+turn.

If you check, your opponent, if capable, will probably seize the opportunity and bet. And you won't know what you're up against. If you bet, your opponent, if capable, may raise, and then you won't know what you're up against.

The same thing will happen again on the river if you don't make your heart flush with an unpaired board.

So what to do?

With these cards and what I know about MP3, I prefer betting to checking. I'd like to bet small enough to not get raised. But I don't know how little I can get away with betting without getting raised. (I think that's highly opponent dependent).

I haven't read the other replies. Be aware that I usually have a different point of view than the other responders... and at least some of the other responders probably play PLO8 better than I do.

Buzz