lolo to everything. please calm down. im pretty bad at omaha8 hu..or wait.. am i top 10 in the world? hmm..i dont know..lets check sharksope.. so funny that everybody just goes mental and starts abusing people.. well played, billy.. well played

lost 8k in the last 12 months billy? now im understanding why you are getting so emotional about all this..playing every single day, posting 1000 of posts and still be losing..must hurt

Sharkscoped you and i think you are the daniel colman of 08 > HU specialist ( congratulations for the nice stats and graph ) , and you seem to crush tourneys here and there , and you seem to dislike poker imao

thanks a lot mate..im pretty flattered but i actually love playing poker..but i agree with colman that he doesnt owe poker anything and its bad for a lot of people.. but i stoped playings hus in the beginning of this year btw

Good points.

I think Hero needs to read Villain for having AA2* and I think Hero needs to predict Villain will step on the gas and overplay his aces after the flop.

Seeing all this and taking advantage of it is expert level play.

Counterfeiter is a newcomer to Omaha-8, but he told us in an earlier post (last month) he has 10 years experience playing Texas hold 'em and... So, although Counterfeiter's new to Omaha-8, he's not new to "playing poker." In this instance he correctly reads an opponent as holding certain cards and then correctly expects that opponent to play those particular cards in a certain way.

That's expert level play.

(And then he gets burned when his 4:1 odds don't pan out).

Looks to me like Counterfeiter went for a blind steal with his (crappy) starting hand, and then when SB re-raised, (1) correctly read SB for aces, (2) correctly recognized SB would overplay aces after a missed flop, and opportunistically decided to continue and see the flop.

Without those two reads it's a different story.

Very reasonable opinion.

Thanks for sharing.

Buzz

false I am up 5k in O8 mtts this year. Probably down quite a bit in nlhe and PLO as ran pretty poor this year. But as this is a O8 forum only O8 matters.

But no doesn't really hurt that much. I play large field nlhe mtts so variance is pretty ridic.

I'm not the 1 that needs to calm down. You came into the thread acting like a massive douche and telling every1 how tired you are of the thread. Pretty lol when you don't even post here. Which is why kroe insta had a go at you and seems like for good reason.

Then you up the doucheness and start challenging him HU. Now you're upping it again by starting to SC every1 that pulls u up on being a douchebag.

well played.

Awful villain. Awful hero.

This hand as played is painful.

You are calling with a bad high only hand, hoping to hit your dream flop, and hoping that you can get implied odds from the villain, when your dream flop basically gives him a horrible flop oop.

What makes this even worse is that it's cash lol.

Villain can play his and you can play your own game.
Villain took a risk with this hand but got payed off, and bad beated.

Pretty much what I said earlier. Even if you have villian's range narrowed down this is just a gross hand to flat a 3bet pre with as you don't hit the nuts often enough for it to be profitable in the long run imo. You can even start thinking more advanced about leveling/flat calling 3 bet wars with regs pre, but this is low stakes so it's an easy dump to the 3bet pre, but it worked this time so nh. I see too much fps (fancy play syndrome) in low stakes. I used to do it too much and glad I have done better in plugging that leak.

Hi fella's,

This hand has been played yesterday in a tourney on PS. THe board is pretty similar to the originaly posted hand in this thread : A2 hand with nut lo draw (no counterfeit protection) , nut high flush draw but not nut high draw since there's already a pair on board. The difference here is that the buyin was lower, im OOP,there are 3 players in the hand, and the nut flush draw is weaker then in the other hand since i have 4 clubs in the hand, and i would say chances are bigger that someone has a 4 then a 5 ( cfr first hand of the thread) especially vs 2 players.

But all in all without to take into account the preflop actions, the position,etc the board is pretty similar : A2 hand with two wheel cards on a paired flop, nut lo draw + nut flush draw. This time it worked. but i agree, i think that this particular situation is like AK in NLH, i have seen a lot of players loosing entire stacks with this hands ( A2s with nut lo draw + nut flush draw on flop followed by 2 nice bricks Lmao ) with the difference that they get it allin preflop in NLH and postflop in PLO8

Hi spimp.

Thank you for your posts and for sharing. I totaly agree. it is "usually" a bad hand, and certainly a very bad hand to call a 3 bet with. I would only do it under certain circumstances f.e. in cash games on the button vs a sb/bb if no one opened, with a good read on the opponent.

Otherwise, that would be a autofold.

This is a fold preflop. I think you are playing too many hands and you are out of position vs multiple opponents with a marginal hand at best. Looking at the line that happened below that I copied and pasted how much do you like your hand if MP1 repops? You have A2xx but all one suit making less of a chance for a flush and the 9 is a junk card. Dump this hand and live to play another day...don't fall in love with A2xx hands out of position in tournaments with very little backup/redraw. The flop may seem good but instead of 9 outs to the flush you have at most 7, as well as it is likely 1 of the two players has a 4 or even A2xx with a piece of the board making it more likely you will get scooped or quartered...once again you got lucky here so nh, but it's a dump pre imo.


UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls 160, MP2 raises to 720, 4 folds, Hero calls 560, MP1 calls 560

The difference here is that the SPR is much lower, which means we are much happier to take the risk of running into big hands in order to take down the large pot. This should always be your primary guide.

As far as preflop goes, we get a discount in the BB with a very reasonable hand. Having 4 clubs sucks but having a respectable kicker to our ace will be relevant often here. I think maybe general plo high cash game approaches to defending your BB are ahead of the curve as compared to plo/8. We probably should be making some lighter defends and playing with good pot odds. Yes it's an mtt but I don't consider this stage of an mtt to be that different from a cash game.

so, well played

If MP1 repops, I would fold in this spot. because we have MP2 behind with a larger stack and he max raised so that would be a 3 way allin. The chances MP1 repops are well small, in any case, i dont see much limping in EP, and repoting on a raiser from the first limper in PLO8, the danger here was more for CO or BTN to repop, but then, I could still simply fold the BB, without to invest any other chips then the blinds.

HU would have been another story, but since im in BB, would just have called his initial raise with that hand OOP. ( if MP1 showed aggression )

good point

agree for the kicker, would of course have been better to have an A24Kds instead of the A29Qss but it isnt christmas everyday

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Counterfeiter

For what it's worth, I think it's about 20% weaker... something like that. Instead of 9 outs, Hero has 7 outs... with two more cards yet to come.
9*8/2+9*36=360 two card combos with 9 outs
7*6/2+7*38=287 two card combos with 7 outs
360 down to 287 is a reduction of about 20%.
Let's check that: 360*0.80=288 is the check.
288 is pretty close to 287... close enough for me.

So whatever the nut club draw with nine outs is worth, I figure the nut club draw with seven outs is worth about 80% of that... something like that.

cfr=? (as used here, must mean "refer to"). Probability one of two opponents were dealt a four (or better for this flop) is only about 0.35. And then they'd have to play the hand. I'd say most starting hands that include a four are not played.

And it's hard, I think for someone with much sense and without a four or better to continue when Hero bets the pot after this flop.

Yikes!!! But Villain does indeed continue... and indeed Villain shoves!!! Turns out Villain has A,3,J9. I call players like that maniacs. (Villain has second nut low draw plus a backdoor diamond flush draw - what I would consider an unplayable fit with this flop).

Hero, meanwhile is making what might best be termed a reasonable semi-bluff after this flop. Hero doesn't have a four or better, but at least Hero has the nut low draw and 80% of a nine-out nut-flush-draw... not what you'd want if four opponents had seen this flop... but very reasonable (in my opinion) with only two opponents seeing this flop.

And then Villain shoves!!!

Now we figure odds.

There was P in the pot, Hero bet P and Hero has 2P left. When Villain raises to more than 2P, Hero is getting P+P+2P=4P to 2P (two to one full pot odds) to call.

If we knew Villain had a four (but no full house)

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 744

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AcQc9c2c	40.40%	102,809	113,785	181	329,625	17,963
4***!7	59.60%	213,457	486,034	181	52,428	17,963

If we take away the bar seven, Villain moves up a couple per cent and we correspondingly move down a couple of per cent. Either way, if Villain flashes a four, as simulated, Hero's only behind 2:3 (not 2:4 or more).
In a cash game this is an easy call. Hero has favorable odds to call.

In a tournament it's a tough decision.

I would not be trying to get it all-in here. I'd simply be trying to steal the pot (with a semi-bluff) and that plan would backfire when Villain shoved... but at that point Hero is getting very favorable odds to continue.

Buzz

Thank you for the explanation, thought you loose more then 20%

yup cfr comes from french, it means refer to

ok, here my thinking was that a player would be more inclined to play a (A2)46 A24K hand then a (A2)56 or A25K hand but with no evidence or math or anything, just a wild guess

Exactly what i thought afterwards when replayed the hand ( maybe Im doing a mistake in this hand but he's doing a big mistake , he needs a 2 or a J (or the backoor flush vs my ( frontdoor ? ) nut flush draw) to win only half the pot, needs both to scoop, the only thing in his favor is his stack, he probably thought I have the four or a draw, and he would make me fold with the reraise, and he has still a chance to win lo ( in his mind if he puts me on high ) and even if he gets scooped, he would still have a competitve stack. I can understand his thinking but its still a bad play ( to me )




That's the part i did not took into account, the SPR aspect seems to be a key factor of the game since it often comes back in the comments. Thank you for the interesting analysis.

Counterfeiter

You're welcome.


If I hadn't done the math, that's what I would have thought too. But I showed the math behind the 20% logic.

Although the hands with the fours are slightly better than the corresponding hands with the fives, I'd want to see the flop with all those starting hands.

But although I would not differentiate between fours and fives for most of the starting hands with which I'd see a flop, there are a few with which I'd be more likely to see the flop with a four than a five.
For example, although I don't like either one of the following two hands, I'd be slightly more inclined to play
A499 than
A599.

A lot depends on other factors including how many players are seated at the table, and position.

It's hard (for me) to tell, though. Thus I find playing against maniacs in a tournament generally difficult.

In a tournament I want to survive - not because I'm afraid, but because surviving is good, winning, tournament strategy. So after a flop of
7,4,4, when a maniac bets like he has a four or better, I tend to be more wary than I should be, considering the source (a maniac). Sadly (for me) it takes stamina, both physical and mental, to successfully play in tournaments. At eighty years old, I just don't have the necessary stamina anymore. When I was younger my solution to maniacs in tournaments was to out-wait them... to avoid getting involved in hands where maniacs would likely be involved... to wait until they got knocked out, which usually happens relatively early.

The trick is to know when you're up against a maniac. Some very solid players can play an overly aggressive style that resembles maniac play. But no solid player holding A,3,J,9 would give a decent or unknown opponent two to one implied pot odds to call all-in after the decent or unknown opponent bet the pot after a flop of 7,4,4.

Anyone who bets a flop of 7,4,4 is "representing" a four or better for high. Someone betting this flop may not actually have a four or better for high... perhaps he/she only has a low draw, or a high pair... but a four or better for high is what a bet "represents," at least to me. That's how I think.

In this particular case, because we have the nut-flush-draw (even though it's only worth 80% of a nine-out-draw) plus the nut-low-draw, even if we know Maniac has a four, we're only behind about 40 to 60.

My guess is Maniac mainly hoped the big bet would scare you into folding. He might have also (over optimistically and stupidly) thought he had some chance if his scare tactic didn't work.

I didn't mention SPR (stack to pot ratio). I did use bet to pot ratio and it turns out, since the bet size is equal to the stack size if the bet will put you all-in, implied pot odds are equal to SPR. But my thinking is always, and will continue to be, in terms of implied pot odds. (And when the bet will put someone all-in, the implied pot odds are equal to the pot odds).

Not a big deal, I suppose.

Buzz

me too

I think the same, but can be very lucrative ( or the end of the tourney )

Impressed by this Buzz, I wish I had your stamina at your age, congratulations to be this involved in the game and in strategy discussing , how many years experience do you have in poker and how many years in PLO8 ?

Counterfeiter

Thanks.

I've had a good life. But you gradually lose it as you age. The physical goes downhill pretty rapidly after your twenties. The mental is more gradual but goes downhill too. I still like to compete, but I'm admittedly not as sharp as I once was.

Thanks.

Almost sixty years ago a friend took me to a card casino. I remember the ceiling was low, the room was poorly ventilated, and the air in the card room stank with stale cigarette smoke. I didn't like the place.

I've been playing poker in private home games since high school, but I didn't read any books about poker or study the game until after I retired. Shortly after I retired, I happened to drive by a card casino and on a whim decided to check it out.

There were two huge high ceiling rooms with hundreds of people playing poker. And there was no smoking.

I thought, "These are my people."

But I didn't join them on the occasion of that visit. Instead I resolved to learn how to play poker better before getting involved.

Of all the different poker games regularly offered in the local brick and mortar casinos, Omaha-8 is, by far, my favorite, and so I decided to focus on learning Omaha-8.

I suppose one could take a different approach to studying Omaha-8 poker, but since I was interested in knowing when the odds are on my side I took a mathematical approach which involved learning about probability.

But I didn't learn Omaha-8 or probability to make money playing poker in a casino.

I play poker for the same two reasons I used to play golf.
(1) I enjoy the competition.
(2) I enjoy the camaraderie.

I have never been in a brick and mortar casino when a game of pot-limit Omaha-8 has been offered. So far as I know brick and mortar pot-limit games of Omaha-8 are unsustainable and only rarely offered in the brick and mortar casinos in which I have played.

I have played pot-limit Omaha-high in a casino... and I have played no-limit Omaha-8 in a casino, but not pot-limit Omaha-8. I think pot-limit Omaha-8 is mostly an on-line phenomenon. (Anyone, feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

Anyhow, to answer your question, I first played pot-limit Omaha-8 about ten years ago... and just in a few unsustainable $100 buy-in private games.

You undoubtedly have played more hands of pot-limit Omaha-8 than I have. But perhaps you have not done as much in depth thinking about the game, or thought along the same mathematical lines, as I have.

Buzz