Three betting for deception is much different than three-betting to iso with a strong or potentially strong hand. I would consider three betting here if:

1) Initial raiser is a player known to open widely

2) the players behind him are weak and have a higher fold rate

3) Players are not short stack.. I want to make sure I can represent a hand and continue on deeper in the hand.. It would be pretty bad to get 4 bet all in getting better than 2:1 say.

I would still say that calling would be a prefered play and three betting for diception occassionally. I also raise with hands that play well in multi way pots for high equity. Like AK2-5x with a nut flush, JJ-AA with a 5 or lower kicker I also raise with as well .. That should give me a fairly good range

I just would not want to raise so much pre flop that villain(s) are going to go with it on a very wide range of flops.. Remember that the nuts change in omaha on most streats and many players with just get it in with low draws.

Guess Im back to not wanting to flip..

Reread the hand history, IMO. CO opened and has a range of ~60% of hands. We can 3bet OTB. Blinds are not calling very often so it's likely to get HU. If they cold 4bet, it's a monster and we essentially know their hand and can play almost perfectly on the flop. If CO 4-bets, same thing, but that's also unlikely given his range and the strength we've shown.

So is the opener a calling station? Has he shown to call threebets oop? The only reason I am questioning this so much is I USED to iso three bet all the time with this type of hand or AAKQ ds and high hands are very tricky in O8 because they are so vunerable on certain flops you havent seen yet.

Again I see many players open wide and call to see flops. Yes we are in pos of villain but KK23 there are so many bad flops that I will have to be willing to bluff at a lot of them..


how much dead money is in the pot? what are the effective stack sizes? This could very well be a difference between me a more casual player and someone who is a pro trying to extract every last penny of value..

Wendy

I give up.

I think calling is the old-fashioned make the nuts and pot pot pot approach and 3-betting will in the near future become the ldo, standard O8 TAG move (and currently in use by better players now).

O8 is behind NL, LHE, and PLO in terms of established strat. I think 3-betting here is a step up in level.

Ymmv.

There are much less "bad" flops for KK32 IMNSHO. AAKQ _needs_ a high flop, and even KT3 can be annoying as people love to play 4332 and KQJ. Flopping top set guarantees a possible made low, a low draw or a straight.

Also people expect AA** when you 3bet, so having the worst of what they expect is often bad.
Against loose villains 32 is likely the best low and KK is likely the best high, so they have to suckout for both sides to scoop (multiway it's much easier for one to suckout for high and one for low).

I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I just dont see too many HU pots in this kind of situation. I tend to play postflop since I think I do a better job of hand reading. This allows me to keep pots small or big depending on what I think my opponents have.

I would also say that depending on the level of game you are playing may make a huge difference in the level of play. I have played as small as 1/2 up to 5/10 plo8.

the players at the lower levels basically dont really get the idea of "scooping" and will call to their total stack just on the low draw.. thats really good but because of this I lean more towards playing postflop rather than pre.

super standard raise for a couple of reasons

1. we could win the pot now
2. we don't mind getting it in for value against almost any number of opponents (4 ways we start to hesitate and rethink this depending on $$$ committed)
3. we will frequently fail to realize our full equity on many board textures for a variety of reasons
4. many times we flop the nut low draw or nut low our chances of scooping will still be poor because of not having the A

by allowing the pot to stay multiway instead of trying to reduce the number of opponents we are set-mining and wheel mining with a hand that is entirely strong enough to play for value - this seems like a fundamental error to me


also - CO is opening 60%!!!
why wouldn't we raise for value?
some of OPs assumptions on fold equity also seem suspect given he describes a dynamic where no 3betting at all is occurring

if CO is opening 60% and i am btn i am designing a strategy to exploit the hell out of him

IRL I raised, moreso to iso than to "balance my range" (though that helps). FWIW, my read was that CO would call the three bet very wide but no one else would call without a very strong hand (thinking no three-betting = only monsters being three-bet = few people other than CO bully wanting to mess around).

We have the button with a hand that has better implied odds then actual hand strength. I can see smooth calling here to bring in the blinds, but really prefer to raise preflop.

Can we see the flop please.

If it has better implied odds than hand strength, the conclusion is to NOT raise (with shallow stacks)

Inflating the pot means you often flip off on the flop, which means the winner is whoever had the preflop hand strength (in the long run). But leaving a lot of room to manoeuvre postflop means that the hand with best implied odds wins.

If he's raising and calling a 3bet then he most likely has an ace too, so if an ace flops he probably isn't going away -- unless he puts you on AAxx for 3betting and the rest of the flop is dry for him.

I don't trust the results of any brute force calculator...my math instincts tell me that this hand is much more profitable heads up than multiway...I could be wrong tho

Kittens, I like limping with these cards as much as anyone, they play well when you catch a flop. Whatever, we still have to deal with the CO who's stealing our position. Personally, I've never had much luck with a passive limp strategy in these situations.

I don't agree that optimal strategy for O8 will be analogous to the trends of other games. And the fact that there is less established strategy means you need to adjust more to specific conditions and not have an automatic play just based on your hand/position.

In some cases I'd be happy to invite the blinds into the hand for cheap. Very player dependent.

I usually 3B this hand. the 23 protects you when an ace flops and you are also in a position to usually get one or two streets of value from Axxx hands and push them off when you make the nut low.

Although it can get tricky when you flop a ld w one pair, becuase your percieved range is a lot stronger.

Most villains will likely put you on a range of aces, A2xx, A3xx all of which you can't beat, so when they stack off with you you are likely not doing well.

the decision to call or 3b is mostly based on past hand information.

I'm not sure about pushing anyone off in the game that I play, but the rest of this was what I was thinking. Heads-up, the only supercrappy flops seemed like ace-high-high and ace-wheel-wheel (counterfeit).

The first time, I flopped a flush with one low card, c-bet and took it down. The second time, flop was As6c6s (I had Kc2cKd3d). I pussed out on a c-bet when checked to, though I realize now this is wrong. Turn 8c, it all ends up in the middle, river blank, we chop it up (his AJT8r wins high).