Hi,

This hands have been played in the same session on the same table. I would like to have your thoughts about the plays who have been made. I will explain you the thought process i went trough, and hope to get your feedback, in case you would have played it differently.

HAND 1 :

In this hand, I reraise in position from the button to MP with a pretty strong starting hand.

We go to the flop HU. The flop is ok , max low draw + counterfeit protection+ middle pair ,backdoor max flush + inside str8 draw. Vilain check raises and puts me allin, I call, since the board is wet, and i have a feeling i did hit the board hard. But all in all, i only have a pair of sixes.

Is the preflop reraise justified or overplayed ?

What would you do postflop ? fold or call ? and why ?

Me(BTN) $9.52 - VP:19 PFR:19 AF:3.0 W:17|100 STL:33| 3B:25|100 CB:0| N:-0.48 Hands:21
(SB) $4.19 - VP:24 PFR:0 AF:1.0 W:75|83 STL:0| 3B:0| CB: N:0.29 Hands:21
(BB) $11.85 - VP:33 PFR:17 AF:Inf. W:0| STL:0| 3B:20| CB:100| N:1.50 Hands:12
(UTG) $7.33 - VP:52 PFR:5 AF:0.3 W:36|50 STL:20|100 3B:0|100 CB:0|0 N:-4.78 Hands:21
(MP) $18.32 - VP:24 PFR:14 AF:Inf. W:25|100 STL:50|50 3B:0|100 CB:100| N:0.69 Hands:21
(CO) $14.66 - VP:14 PFR:10 AF:Inf. W:25|100 STL:0|100 3B:0| CB:50|100 N:2.10 Hands:21



HAND 2 :

In this hand, I have a mediocre hand, no one opens, I decide to raise from the cutoff since I have position with a ok hand in that specific spot. SB and BB both call.

Flop turns into a monster. Nut low + counterfeit protection + max str8 draw. SB bets into the pot BB calls, i reraise MAX to take the pot down now, or go HU. SB goes allin on the reraise, BB calls, and im as good as allin if i call. Now it is a multyway pot, chances are great that there's another A4, a flush draw, and certainly a made better high hand. I dont like the hand that much anymore, but call since i am pretty pot commited and have low locked with a shot to a max high ( in case no flush comes and i hit a str8 .. ).

What would you have done on the flop ?

Me(CO) $14.18 - VP:30 PFR:24 AF:2.3 W:25|100 STL:50|100 3B:13|67 CB:80|100 N:4.18 Hands:50
(BTN) $2.79 - VP:18 PFR:0 AF:1.0 W:50|71 STL:0|100 3B:0| CB:|100 N:-1.11 Hands:50
(SB) $12.02 - VP:32 PFR:20 AF:Inf. W:13|0 STL:33|40 3B:13| CB:50|100 N:1.67 Hands:41
(BB) $9.80 - VP:33 PFR:0 AF: W:0| STL: 3B:0| CB: N:-0.20 Hands:3
(UTG) $15.21 - VP:0 PFR:0 AF: W: STL:0|100 3B:0| CB: N:-0.15 Hands:10
(MP) $15.22 - VP:18 PFR:12 AF:Inf. W:38|100 STL:40|100 3B:7| CB:50|100 N:2.66 Hands:50



HAND 3:

In this hand, im in MP with a strong starting hand (A2+2wheel cards dubbel suited) and i decide to reraise UTG who min raised pre. UTG is the best player at the table according to me. He was tight aggressive, highest aggression factor,never folds to a 3 bet, won at showdown 100 % of the time after if he went to river with + 100 hands played at the same table, has the best profit so far on this table for this session ( N ). I still decide to reraise him since I have the position. He reraises pre, i call. ( could have reraised but if he does reraise, he must have something.. so I wanna see the flop before to go crazy ).

Flop is high only. No low possible. All I have is a max flush draw + weak backdoor flush draw. I dont think he has a str8 or a 3 of a kind, the hand i put him on is Eventually AA2x, AA3x, but never 23KK, 23QQ not even A210J. to me he has a missed A2xx hand ( with a floped high pair ). He bets pot, I call. Low heart on turn, now i have 2 flush draws, but still nothing else, no pair, no possible low, all i can get at best on the river is a pair of aces or a flush. Vilain puts me allin on turn, have to call 4 in 19 with 2 flush draws ( 1 max flush draw ), I call.

What do you think of the preflop and postflop play ? , is it right or wrong ?

Me(MP) $11.17 - VP:26 PFR:19 AF:2.0 W:26|100 STL:35|67 3B:6|67 CB:71|75 N:1.17 Hands:97
(CO) $5.43 - VP:14 PFR:0 AF:1.0 W:50|60 STL:0|91 3B:0| CB:|100 N:-3.47 Hands:104
(BTN) $11.25 - VP:26 PFR:17 AF:Inf. W:24|75 STL:28|62 3B:7| CB:33|100 N:0.90 Hands:103
(SB) $9.49 - VP:29 PFR:8 AF:1.2 W:16|33 STL:24|38 3B:0| CB:100|33 N:-4.70 Hands:65
(BB) $10.62 - VP:19 PFR:14 AF:2.0 W:20|100 STL:29|100 3B:0| CB:50|100 N:0.62 Hands:21
(UTG) $17.42 - VP:17 PFR:13 AF:19.0 W:31|100 STL:28|100 3B:3| CB:71|67 N:4.86 Hands:112



HAND 4 :

Hand 4 is against the same vilain then in hand 3, in a similar spot. He opens with a min raise UTG, I MAX raise from MP with a A26xs hand. Same scenario, he repots it pre and i call.

The flop is again a high only flop, and from what i have seen so far, he 4bets oop with A2 hands accompanied by wheel cards ( thats what he had in the exact same spot a few hands earlier with the same preflop actions cfr hand 3 ), so I dont think he did hit the flop hard, he may have the Ace, but I think im better with the queen kicker. It goes check check. I dont bet to get him out, and decide to see the turn.

The turn is ok, gives me a shot to a weak low draw, with the pair of Aces Q kicker, I feel like im ahead for high, and call his turn bet, if he did not hitted the flop, his hand cant be better now, and he is not the tricky check raise type so to me he was not traping me on flop...

River goes check check,

What would you have done differently preflop and postflop ?

Me(MP) $22.94 - VP:24 PFR:17 AF:1.8 W:27|100 STL:28|67 3B:7|67 CB:70|60 N:12.94 Hands:138
(CO) $6.14 - VP:40 PFR:20 AF:Inf. W:33|0 STL:50| 3B:0| CB:0|100 N:-5.86 Hands:15
(BTN) $12.29 - VP:26 PFR:16 AF:Inf. W:27|57 STL:26|63 3B:7|100 CB:44|100 N:-7.92 Hands:144
(SB) $16.93 - VP:32 PFR:8 AF:1.2 W:26|44 STL:23|50 3B:0|0 CB:100|20 N:-13.25 Hands:106
(BB) $13.87 - VP:18 PFR:6 AF:0.8 W:27|100 STL:13|50 3B:0|0 CB:50|50 N:3.87 Hands:62
(UTG) $11.25 - VP:18 PFR:14 AF:9.3 W:33|75 STL:20|100 3B:5|0 CB:62|67 N:-5.76 Hands:153



In general, what do you think of 3betting max in position in PLO8 ? I barely see it in micro stakes 6 max ring games, but it seems to work ! I think it is a powerfull but dangerous tool,who has to be used cautiously, in the right spots.

Counterfeiter.

Justified.

Call.

If you're going to play with people who like to gamble, you have to gamble too. You don't have a great fit with this flop, but you do have a decent fit.

I would have played it about the same as you did.


Wheel cards are aces, deuces, treys, fours, and fives. Sixes and sevens are not wheel cards. Sixes and sevens are middle cards. In general you want to avoid starting hands with two middle cards but in this case the six works with the ace-deuce, providing a modicum of counterfeit protection. However, your starting hand seriously lacks high card strength.

I think you may be rating this starting hand higher than I would rate it. I'm going to want to see the flop with this starting hand, but I'm not in love with it by any means.

I see that you won with the backdoor baby heart draw, but in general backdoor baby flush draws are weak and can be costly.

Awkward spot. Since I'd rather play this hand with more players than fewer players, and since two-betting tends to induce opponents to fold, I would not reraise.

Awkward spot because of the pre-flop action. Without the extra money in the pot, and heads-up, this is an easy fold for me. I count 9 outs, 8 outs for the non-pairing spades plus 1 out for the backdoor baby hearts. 45 missing cards with 9 outs makes it 36 to 9 against. That's 4 to 1 against. If Villain bets enough to put us all in on the next betting rounds, in order to have favorable odds to venture $11 here, I'd have to expect to win $44... and all Hero can expect to win is about
$5+$11=$16.

[Edit:]Hero is MP with A 7 2 6

After the pre-flop action the pot contains $4.95 and there are only two players still in the pot, Hero and Villain.

Hero started the hand with $11.17 while Villain started the hand with $17.42. They each have $2.40 invested in the pot after the first betting round. Thus Hero still has $8.77 and Villain still has $15.02 after the first betting round.

The flop is 9 K Q

Villain bets $4.74

Those are the facts. (I think I have the facts straight. Please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong).
----------------------
implied pot odds When Villain bets $4.74 to start the second betting round, Hero should realize Villain easily can bet $4.03 more on the third betting round, which will force Hero all-in. Or, if Hero makes his spade flush on the turn, and if Villain doesn't bet, then Hero will bet his last $4.03. Either way, starting from the point where Hero is faced with Villain's $4.74 bet, this hand is almost surely not just going to cost Hero the $4.74 for this bet. Instead, the total cost to Hero, starting from this point, will be $8.77.

Before this betting round there is $4.90 already in the pot. Since Hero will be putting a total of $8.77 (all he has left) in the pot, Villain will match that $8.77.

Thus the most Hero can win is $4.90+$8.77=$13.67.

And to do that, Hero will have to risk $8.77.

If I haven't made a sloppy mistake in math, Hero is getting implied pot odds of 13.67/8.77=about 1.56 to 1.

[end edit]

Well... maybe that's too conservative. but even if we somehow come up with 6 more outs for Hero, it's still 30 to 15 against. (That's 2 to 1 against... can we win $22 here? No?... Then it's a bad bet).

At any rate waging more money here is a bad bet. (A bad bet is a bet with unfavorable odds). As it turns out, you win. Sometimes when the odds are against you, you win anyhow.

Congratulations.

• Preflop is not how I would play it (see above), but I wouldn't say you were wrong. It's an awkward situation.
• Postflop you made an odds error. (You don't have favorable odds to continue to the bet).

I don't think you recognize the importance of high cards in this game. (Because you're written your hand as "A26xs"). I think of your starting hand as A(Q2)6. That queen is very important because it gives your starting hand sufficient (barely) high card strength.

Anyhow, I'd consider four betting. You have a nice hand for heads-up play. But although I'd seriously consider four betting, I don't fault you for calling the three bet. Fine.

I'd bet this flop after he checks. You can't play scared (or at least you shouldn't play scared).

I think that's a mistake. Maybe you did better by giving him a chance to bluff the turn, but you also took a risk. Checking here may seem less of a risk than betting, but you gave him a free card. It all worked out OK for you, but I think you made a mistake by not betting the flop.

Turn is OK, and then river, considering the way he bet the turn, is OK too.

And in the end, your queen out-kicked his jack. That should emphasize for you the value of high card strength for heads-up play.

I think what to do varies depending on your opponent(s).

Buzz

Hand 1 : well played. mix up flatting and 3-betting these hands, though.

hand 2: standard

hand 3 : shove flop and give him a chance to make a mistake and fold , or disconnect

hand 4: fold turn is probably the smartest

Totally correct about wheel cards, I sometimes write things which make no sense, haha So this kind of A2MM ( middle-middle) hand better plays multiway, reason why a reraise is not adviced in this spot ? I understand the thought process.

Totally understand. In other words, the reason which would justify a call in this spot ( going after a max flush on flop ), would be if we were deep enough, so that i have a win
esperance of 4 x my investment, ( implied odds ), correlating to the pot odds , this would also mean that 3 opponents have to be in the hand,with at least my stack size, and they should all be going allin, is that right ? It is the hand where i felt like i should fold, had a bad feeling going for high only, but also thought this guy is going to C especially on dry boards or high only boards, i admit it , it was stupid and dangerous ( postflop )

Agree. Especially for the free card part, since he is a straightforward player, a check usually means weakness. Ill bet into him in similar spots in the future and will come back with the feedback.

Thank you for your always appreciated analysis Buzz

hand 3: imao @ disconnect hahaha

hand 4 : agree, and what do you think of C betting on the flop as suggested by Buzz ?

Buzz is right. Think about the range of hands you represented pre-flop. By checking you say 2 things: "i have a hand that i will trap you with on the turn", or " my hand is garbage and you can have it on the next street". In his mind, you should be betting this flop. he wont be bluffing the turn as much as if you checked back an 8910. The game also changes when you are deep enough to call a turn bet and play a river. That's not happening in this hand.

Your actual hand, (A2)(76), is better than just A2MM. I think the strongest feature of this hand is the suited ace. (ace-deuce-six for low is second). I want opponents chasing and paying off with non-nut flushes and non-nut lows. Neither the nut flush draw nor the nut low draw with back-up connected this time, but next time they might.

There probably will be substantial disagreement with me on the issue of pre-flop raises with hands like this one. People have different default playing styles and I think more than one playing style is effective, depending somewhat on your opponents and your interaction with them. But in general, though not always, I prefer making my move on a later betting round for a variety of reasons.

Close.

If the odds against making a winning hand (sometimes called "hand odds") are 4 to 1 against you in a pot-limit or no-limit game such that you might expect to be forced all-in on the next bet, then in order to have favorable odds, you have to expect to win at least 4 times your investment (sometimes called "implied pot odds") when you do win.

[Edit:] I made a mistake in my original post. I apologize for my error and want to correct it.

I didn't subtract the amount each player had already bet from each players stack. My error doesn't change the fact of the unfavorable odds facing Hero, but I should get the numbers correct for clarity.

Hero is MP with A 7 2 6

After the pre-flop action the pot contains $4.95 and there are only two players still in the pot, Hero and Villain.

Hero started the hand with $11.17 while Villain started the hand with $17.42. They each have $2.40 invested in the pot after the first betting round. Thus Hero still has $8.77 and Villain still has $15.02 after the first betting round.

The flop is 9 K Q

Villain bets $4.74

Those are the facts. (I think I have the facts straight. Please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong).
----------------------
implied pot odds When Villain bets $4.74 to start the second betting round, Hero should realize Villain easily can bet $4.03 more on the third betting round, which will force Hero all-in. Or, if Hero makes his spade flush on the turn, and if Villain doesn't bet, then Hero will bet his last $4.03. Either way, starting from the point where Hero is faced with Villain's $4.74 bet, this hand is almost surely not just going to cost Hero the $4.74 for this bet. Instead, the total cost to Hero, starting from this point, will be $8.77.

Before this betting round there is $4.90 already in the pot. Since Hero will be putting a total of $8.77 (all he has left) in the pot, Villain will match that $8.77.

Thus the most Hero can win is $4.90+$8.77=$13.67.

And to do that, Hero will have to risk $8.77.

If I haven't made a sloppy mistake in math, Hero is getting implied pot odds of 13.67/8.77=about 1.56 to 1.

Those are truly Hero's implied pot odds. They're not close to being high enough to give Hero favorable odds to continue.[end edit]

There either has to be more in the pot when you make this investment or you need more opponents. [Continue Edit:]A third possibility is you both have enough money left, and Villain is stuck in the pot so that he must call a bet of enough chips to give you favorable implied pot odds. [end edit]

However, one could argue with my choosing of "outs." For me Omaha-8 is quite different from Texas hold 'em in this regard. Playing Texas hold 'em, I'd count all missing spades as flush outs, but in Omaha-8, I wouldn't count pairing flush cards (here the K) as outs for the flush.

There are actually two cards yet to come, not just one. In other words, instead of 45 possible cards, there are really C(45,2)=990 possible two card combinations. When you have two flush suit cards in your hand, there are two flush suit cards on the flop, and you need just one more card on either the turn or river to make a front door flush, there are 1-C(36,2)=360 of those possible two card turn/river combinations that make your flush.

If you need both the turn and river to be cards of the flush suit, then there are only C(10,2)=45 of those possible two card turn/river combinations that make your flush.

So if 360 two card combos make a front door flush when there are 9 outs after the flop, then 45 two card combos is worth about 1 out. That's how I get 1 out for the worth of a back-door flush draw.

But anyhow, there are actually more ways for Hero to win than with a flush. And I didn't account for them at all. For example, the turn and river might both be sixes and Hero's trip sixes might win, with nobody actually making the Broadway straight that is possible on the flop. Or the turn and river might be an ace and a king, making a pair of kings on the board, and making Hero two pairs, aces over kings, which might win with nobody actually making the either the Broadway straight that is possible or the trip kings or full house (or quad kings) that become possible after the board pairs.

So, at any rate, if you simulate this, the simulation equity probably won't show Hero behind by four to one. And that's because in the simulation, Hero will win with some non-flush hands.

And actually, if you hung in there with this hand, and if there was a six on the turn and a six on the river, making you trip sixes, depending on the size of the bet, you might be faced with a tough decision... with a straight possible and six full houses possible, are your trip sixes any good or not?

At any rate it's complex. Realizing, however, that you might win with more than just a flush, you might add a few outs to the nine. (Or maybe not). So maybe your hand odds are not 36 to 9 (against you). Maybe they're truly more like 35 to 10, 34 to 11... or even 30 to 15 (against you).

Jeez, I'm making this too complicated aren't I? But there's really a lot here.

At any rate, you're close.

People do bluff in this game, especially those who are more used to playing no-limit-Texas hold 'em. Part of playing poker in Omaha-8 is reading your opponents. The game is Omaha-8, but you still have to play poker.

You're welcome.

Buzz

1: I'd flat this hand in this spot pre-flop. It's a great hand multiway, while only OK hand HU vs villain's 3-bet flat-range or his 4-bet -range. The hand also plays much better with high SPR than low SPR as you hit pretty hard when you hit. The play is fine though if you think the villain is weak (for example, gives up too much vs cbet).

Flop is a standard bet-getin obv.


2: Getting in as much money as possible on the flop is the best play. You probably have outs to scoop (A/4) and as a standard getin-range is so A4-heavy AK is the best high hand right now a decent amount of time.


3: Again, with these reads I don't understand why you want to 3-bet pre. It's not a hand that plays that great HU with low SPR and it opens you up to a 4-bet.

I think both folding and calling are OK on the flop. Without the bdfd I'd like to fold it.


4: Here you have a high kicker, so it's a better hand HU, but it's a hand that hates getting 4-bet. I don't understand why you think it's a good idea to attack tight player's UTG-opens?

Without much history with this villain I'd stab the flop (~half the pot), although it hits his 4-bet range pretty hard. Especially in smaller games checks usually mean weakness.

Turn call is pretty loose, you don't have the best high-hand here often as his range should be very AK-heavy. When you check it down you are not winning it often. I think villain's check on the river is a substantial mistake, AJ doesn't have much showdown value and he is either shown a better hand or bluffed out.

I wouldnt be happy with trip sixes , and its not too complicated, its great to have your analysis which is always of a great help for average PLO 8 players

Hi amok.

I think that thats a leak, getting too crazy preflop with A2MM cards even if there are good M cards, since there's no real chance of winning high, in general, it seems they better play multiway, and if i get it right, after your and buzze's feedback, we need a strong multiway starting hand such as A23K, A(A2)K to 3bet pre and isolate the players because these hands play better HU ?

I don't agree with Buzz very often, but I'm glad we did if that happened.

Try to get a feel how hands play against each other hot'n'cold by using http://www.propokertools.com/simulations.

Note that when you have position, it's good for you to have a pot with high SPR (stack/pot ratio). When 3-betting, you are making SPR lower, which is generally bad for the player in position. With 100bb stacks I don't think you should be 3-betting a ton IP, especially potting. Only when you are really deep you can start 3-betting a lot IP and stop 3-betting OOP.

I think mainly our differences arise because we have different styles of play, and perhaps that is because we have opponents such that your usual opponents generally play differently than my usual opponents usually play.

I'm also glad when we agree. And I appreciate your willingness to post regardless of my point of view. Hopefully the process of thinking about and discussing what to do improves both of our games.

I made a serious mistake in figuring the implied pot odds which I now have edited (above in blue). Doesn't change my conclusion, but it does correct the exact numbers I used.

Buzz

Ok so the advice would be to 3 bet more often oop if hero and vilain are relatively short stacked to put vilain in a bad shape and 3 bet more ip when very deep , ? How many BB do You consider very deep ?

Hi buzz , thank You for the edit , !