Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

[AKQJ10]

You probably will want to be almost that tight, but why wouldn't you want to start thinking about position?

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by flamdrag

In a 9-handed game with a mix of players that include VPIPs between ~20% and ~60%, how big of a mistake would it be to play a completely static and nitty preflop game of top 15% vpip with no consideration for position or players already in the pot?

I don't think I can improve upon AKQJ10's answer. I can maybe add a bit.

Depending on one's point of view, it's a mistake, but not a beginner's mistake.

Position is very, very important when playing pot-limit Omaha-8, but not nearly as important when playing at the loose, full table of fixed-limit Omaha-8 you have described. The difference is when you bet in a fixed-limit game, an opponent who has position on you can only raise by the same amount you have just bet, not possibly three times as much.

This thread is for questions from someone relatively new to the game, someone who is more or less an Omaha-8 beginner. There's a lot for someone who is newly learning Omaha-8 to assimilate that will more or less become second nature after gaining experience.

We advise newbs to play tightly while they mostly watch and learn. When you carefully watch an opponent for a while, you naturally learn about the individual's habits. You get a better idea of what will work well and what won't work well at that particular table of individuals. Moreover you gradually learn about the importance of position.

I'm presupposing eagerness to learn, reasonable patience, and intelligence.

Buzz

[memopelon]

I'm brand new to Omaha8 but have played 3k+ hands trying to get the hang of it. Below is an example of something that happens a lot, and I can't figure it out. How can there be more than one high hand when they are not of equal value?

Merge - $0+$0.00|<> Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 1,800.00
MP: 2,100.00
CO: 1,500.00
BTN: 1,380.00
Hero (SB): 800.00
BB: 1,420.00

Hero posts SB 10.00, BB posts BB 20.00

Pre Flop: (pot: 30.00) Hero has K 8 7 T

UTG calls 20.00, fold, CO calls 20.00, BTN calls 20.00, fold, BB checks

Flop: (90.00, 4 players) 2 7 5
BB bets 45.00, UTG calls 45.00, fold, BTN calls 45.00

Turn: (225.00, 3 players) K
BB bets 20.00, UTG calls 20.00, BTN raises to 162.00, BB calls 142.00, UTG calls 142.00

River: (711.00, 3 players) A
BB checks, UTG checks, BTN checks

BB shows 2 7 J 6 (Two Pair, Sevens and Twos) (Pre 37%, Flop 54%, Turn 11%)
UTG shows J A 3 3 (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 23%, Flop 12%, Turn 7%)
BTN shows 3 5 K A (Two Pair, Aces and Kings) (Pre 40%, Flop 34%, Turn 82%)
BTN wins 356.00
UTG wins 178.00
BTN wins 177.00

[thesilverbail]

BTN won the high. UTG and BTN chopped the low (both had A2357 for low).

[memopelon]

I knew there had to be an explanation! I was looking at the automated descriptions of the hands without noticing they were irrelevant.

Thanks!

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by memopelon

I knew there had to be an explanation! I was looking at the automated descriptions of the hands without noticing they were irrelevant.

Thanks!

thesilverbail has given you a correct explanation.

Somehow you used an Omaha-high-only hand history convertor instead of a hand history convertor for Omaha-8. Perhaps that's why you were confused.

It's usually easier if you arrange the numbers from the highest to the lowest, counting aces as "1." Thus the winning low hands are better understood if read as 75321.

Sometimes we might say both of the winning low hands had a "live 3."

Buzz

[aksimmon]

Question about a hand.

Not sure how to import but here was detail

Hero dealt 8sTc9sJc
Villan dealt 9d8c6h4c

Flop comes 887QT. Say the T doesn't coming give me a full house who wins the hand or is it a tie. I thought you must always play 2 hole cards but I was told was lucky to not split. Please give thoughts. I always thought you must play 2 hole cards and that I would of won unless he hit his full house with my J kicker. I was told I got lucky for hitting full house and not splitting pot.

[AKQJ10]

Originally Posted by aksimmon

Question about a hand.

Not sure how to import but here was detail

Hero dealt 8sTc9sJc
Villan dealt 9d8c6h4c

Flop comes 887QT. Say the T doesn't coming give me a full house who wins the hand or is it a tie. I thought you must always play 2 hole cards but I was told was lucky to not split. Please give thoughts. I always thought you must play 2 hole cards and that I would of won unless he hit his full house with my J kicker. I was told I got lucky for hitting full house and not splitting pot.

You're correct. You each must play a kicker. You had the better high on the turn, 888QJ vs 888Q9. But you weren't that far head in equity terms, because several low cards give your opponent the low half; a 4, 5, or 6 gives him a scoop; and a 9 chops with you.. Perhaps that's why he said you were lucky not to split? Or more likely, he was hopeful that a ten would be an out for him (because it makes a straight) so he was just running his mouth....

[str8 or better]

Originally Posted by AKQJ10

You each must play a kicker.

...and therefore:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

865,920 trials (Exhaustive)

board: KKK

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
2x3y4z5w	0.00%	0	0	0	0	0
2w3z4y6x	100.00%	865,920	865,920	0	0	0

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by aksimmon

Question about a hand.

Not sure how to import but here was detail

Hero dealt 8sTc9sJc
Villan dealt 9d8c6h4c

Flop comes 887QT.

I guess you mean the board is 887QT, with the cards delivered to the board in that order, 887 on the flop, Q on the turn, and T on the river. And since you haven't indicated suits for the board cards, I guess suits don't matter.

Say the T doesn't coming give me a full house who wins the hand or is it a tie.

Depends what the river card is.
• If the river is a five, then Villain makes a straight (98765) while Hero only has trip eights.
• If the river is an ace, deuce, trey, four, or six, then the pot is split with Villain winning low and Hero winning high.
• If the river is a nine, then the pot is split with both Hero and Villain making a full house, eights full of nines.
• If the river is a seven, queen, or king, then low is not possible and Hero wins high using his eight and jack for trip eights with a jack kicker.
• If the river is a ten or jack, then low is not possible and Hero wins high with a full house.

Thus
• the hand is a tie if the river is an ace, deuce, trey, four, six, or nine (a total of twenty cards),
• Villain scoops if the river is a five (a total of four cards), and
• Hero scoops if the river is anything else (a total of sixteen cards).

I thought you must always play 2 hole cards

That is correct for Omaha-8 (or Omaha-high).

but I was told was lucky to not split.

I guess in a way you were lucky. However, you were favored. That is you had more equity in the hand than Villain.

I always thought you must play 2 hole cards and that I would of won unless he hit his full house with my J kicker.

Not exactly. (See above).

I was told I got lucky for hitting full house and not splitting pot.

In a way, you were lucky. However, saying you were lucky is misleading because it implies you were an underdog after the turn rather than the favorite. A better way to phrase what happened would be to tell you that you were not unlucky.

You didn't ask, but neither your hand nor Villain's hand is a very good starting hand. In general when you play high/low split games, you should like high cards, mostly ace and kings, for high and you should like low cards, mostly wheel cards, for low. Instead, what both you and Villain hold are mostly middle cards, sixes, sevens, eights, nines, and tens. Middle cards are not generally good cards in starting hands because middle cards don't win often enough for high nor do they win often enough for low. It's just that simple.

I like neither your starting hand nor Villain's starting hand.

But heads up, starting from before the flop, you have more equity than Villain:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

1,086,008 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
8sTc9sJc	53.85%	383,482	737,209	68,365	0	0
9d8c6h4c	46.15%	280,434	280,434	68,365	605,984	0

Then after this particular flop, Villain is favored.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

820 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 887

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
8sTc9sJc	43.48%	184	478	67	0	0
9d8c6h4c	56.52%	275	275	67	520	0

And then after the turn, Hero is again the favorite:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

40 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 887Q

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
8sTc9sJc	57.50%	16	28	2	0	0
9d8c6h4c	42.50%	10	10	2	16	0

Going back and forth between being the favorite and the underdog happens often in Omaha-8. Since Villain was the favorite immediately after the flop, one could say Hero was lucky to win after that particular flop.

But Hero was the favorite before the flop and after the turn.

Welcome to the world of Omaha-8.

Buzz

[Mr. X]

I just bought Ray Zees hi-lo book.

I only got thru the first 5-10 pages of the O8 half and think its excellent advice. Even though it wasnt made for the online age, he talks about loose games that if you play tight you can make money by nut peddling and scooping.


I feel I have been doing things the oposite. I need to learn to PLAY TIGHT first then open up. this WHOLE TIME I was worried abut playing so tight I was leaving money on the table. especially since I felt I dont scoop enough and thought only playing for half the pots would b ok

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

I just bought Ray Zees hi-lo book.

Good choice, in my opinion.

I only got thru the first 5-10 pages of the O8 half and think its excellent advice.

I agree.

I need to learn to PLAY TIGHT first then open up.

I think so too.

this WHOLE TIME I was worried abut playing so tight I was leaving money on the table. especially since I felt I dont scoop enough and thought only playing for half the pots would b ok

You are leaving money on the table when you play too tightly. But as a beginner learning the game, there are other more important considerations. As you play longer, assuming you're capable of learning, you'll become a more skilled player, and then you can worry about playing too tightly and leaving money on the table.

Buzz

[Pleasure]

hye guys I ve been re-reading Zees Hi-Lo book.

for Preflop play
He doesn't really seem to be a big fan of raising much. Citing fluctuations to your roll and whatnot.

Whether UTG or LP, Can I still 2 and sometimes 3 bet my premiums

I have basically been only playing hands like A-2-4-5 , A-2-3-x, A-A-3-4 and A-A-2-x hands. Can I raise with my top top range of hands or should I only call in EP?



ALso A3 hads at these rather looser micro stake games. Can I treat A3 ALMOST like A2 or does the A3 need a 7 or lower for akicker?


and last question. with a A2 hand. can I still call 2 and 3 bets PRe? or will I need something more substantial to go along?

[AKQJ10]

Originally Posted by Pleasure

hye guys I ve been re-reading Zees Hi-Lo book.

for Preflop play
He doesn't really seem to be a big fan of raising much. Citing fluctuations to your roll and whatnot.

Whether UTG or LP, Can I still 2 and sometimes 3 bet my premiums

I have basically been only playing hands like A-2-4-5 , A-2-3-x, A-A-3-4 and A-A-2-x hands. Can I raise with my top top range of hands or should I only call in EP?

Yeah, it's hard for me to tell is this is just reflective of an old-school B&M gambling mentality where there's so much variance in your yearly win that you don't push small edges. I'm certainly raising good hands for value a LOT in live O8.

You do need to consider pushing (HU, top pair) versus pulling (volume) hands, though. Ask for details if you don't know the concept.

ALso A3 hads at these rather looser micro stake games. Can I treat A3 ALMOST like A2 or does the A3 need a 7 or lower for akicker?

If the game's extremely loose (~7 per flop), i might play any A3 because it's getting more value from A4 and 32 than it is losing from making a lot of second-nuts. In only somewhat loose games (~4 to the flop), i'm requiring a little something else: suited ace is great, another wheel card is good, two broadway cards is very good, a king is good. A 6 or 7 per se isn't worth too much, although 6s go very well with all-wheel hands like A356.

I'm not sure if cold calling a raise in a pretty loose game with something like A335 is a leak. Probably a small one.

and last question. with a A2 hand. can I still call 2 and 3 bets PRe? or will I need something more substantial to go along?

In most games they're playable for 2 bets cold. If the raiser has to have AA or A2 and the players behind, including the blinds, are unlikely to give her action than you might muck the really trashy A2s -- rainbow hands, hands with small pairs, hands with sidecards 6 thru 9.

[Pleasure]

thanks a bunch. Also, Im assuming that 2 bet means raise and 3bet means re raise?

the micro stake games here usually are 4-7 per flop. I have been folding a lot of A3 hands. If I get an A35x hand. Wether suited or unsuited. I might call.


even though it doesn't happen TOO often at these 5/10c and 25/50c games. I sometimes have trouble in games were we see a raise pre.



Also is folding A45 in any position with A being suited too nitty? I am thinking about calling it fro now on if its only 1bet(means im only facing a limp??) and A is suited. and im assuming A34 and A35 can also be called from any position at these stakes?