Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

[str8 or better]

Originally Posted by agincourt_15

another newbie ? - i understand no limit and pot limit, can you just confirm how fixed limit works, is it an amount that increases by street or remains the same?
thx

preflop and on the flop the bets go in increments of the size of the small bet and on the turn and river in increments of the size of the big bet.
say you're playing 4$/8$ limit, the blinds are 2 and 4. in order to call, you put 4. if you want to raise, you put 4+4=8. if you raise to 8 and someone wants to 3b, he puts 4+4+4=12. the bets are usually capped at 4 bets or 5, that is at 16$ or 20$.
same goes on the flop. you want to bet, you put in 4. someone wants to raise you, he puts in 8.
on the turn and river, a bet is worth 8, a raise is worth 8+8=16, a 3b is worth 8+8+8=24, etc.

[agincourt_15]

thank you

[daveopie]

Horay - I made it all the way through the newb thread. Great work Buzz!

I'm an experienced LHE player. I've sat at O/8 tables twice several months ago and broke even once and got killed once ... but it turns out that I had no clue what I was doing. I'd like to give it another shot. To prepare for that, in the past week I've done some studying. I read the O/8 half of Ray Zee's book and am now half way through the O/8 chapter of SS2 and will finish it by this weekend, when I hope to play some limit O/8 at my local casino.

I know there are often some big fish playing O/8 at my casino. There are usually also a couple of solid players. I heard some talk last week that got me a bit worried that there may be a few crazy aggressive players (who may or may not be loose). It wouldn't suprise me to often see 3 bets preflop and several post flop raises - with the fish calling along. I was planning on playing tight - a little bit more than the "Buzz 13.7% starting hands", mostly entering a pot only when in position, and folding flops that I don't hit solidly.

How would you change your strategy if there were one or two loose cannons sitting at your O/8 table? In LHE, I would reraise preflop a bit lighter than normal to isolate the crazies, and play cautiously postflop, using their aggression against them to get lots of money in the pot when I do hit a good hand, and maybe call down a bit light when I don't. I don't know how that translates to O/8. Same or different?

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by daveopie

Horay - I made it all the way through the newb thread. Great work Buzz!

Thanks, but I don't deserve all the credit.

I was planning on playing tight - a little bit more than the "Buzz 13.7% starting hands", mostly entering a pot only when in position, and folding flops that I don't hit solidly.

Some of the starting hands I cited for beginners are not as good as some hands I omitted, but I wanted to keep it very simple.

I don't want to downplay having position, but having position in a fixed-limit game is not nearly as important as having position in a pot-limit game. If you're playing in a fixed-limit game, which will likely be the case if you're playing in a brick and mortar casino, the fit you have with the board is more important, by far, than having position.

How would you change your strategy if there were one or two loose cannons sitting at your O/8 table? In LHE, I would reraise preflop a bit lighter than normal to isolate the crazies, and play cautiously postflop, using their aggression against them to get lots of money in the pot when I do hit a good hand, and maybe call down a bit light when I don't. I don't know how that translates to O/8. Same or different?

Roughly the same, depending on the possibility of isolating them (which depends on whether or not your opponents will get out of the way if you raise). Try the tactic (isolating) and if it works, use it. If it doesn't work, give up on it and try something else.

Good luck. Let us know how you fare. I think you're on the right track.

Buzz

[str8 or better]

just remember, in LO8, junk hands usually suffer more in multiway pots than HU...

[daveopie]

Originally Posted by Buzz

Good luck. Let us know how you fare. I think you're on the right track.
Buzz

After studying Super System 2 and Ray Zee’s book several evenings last week, this past weekend I played my first real session of 4/8 limit Omaha hi/lo 8 or better with a half kill. I played for 10 hours and lost $100. I guess that was too be expected. I played a little longer than I planned because I was down just one good scooped pot but I couldn’t hit it to get back to even. Here is what I learned – although a lot of it was in the books – unfortunately sometimes you have to learn things the hard way for it to really sink in.

While I was searching for starting hands that could scoop, the only pots I scooped was when I got the high and there was no low - most starting hands with 4 Broadway cards are worth limping in. I once had nut low and second nut high and got ¼ of the pot. I once had second nut low and second nut high and got nothing for it. I saw highs won by as little as one pair – a pair of 6’s was the lowest. I saw highs won by quads – several times – about the same number of times a hand less than top pair got the high.

I saw the low chopped frequently, but I rarely saw the high chopped, except for a wheel. The lesson I learned is that if you have the high on the river, you should probably bet, raise, and reraise, especially if there are 3 people in the pot.

I don’t think I ever won a hand when I started with A2xx. The dealer kept putting an A or a 2 on the board somewhere, which really sucked. Having another low card really is a huge boost. I only raised a few times preflop, once with A236 and once with A246. One of those times, three saw the flop of something like JTT and a good player in one of the blinds bet out – I suspect a bluff because he knew I had low cards since I had raised, but there was nothing I could do about it except fold.

A3xx is a very difficult hand to play. Twice I called down hoping for a low only to see my opponent turn over A2 for the nut low. A couple times I folded an A3 low draw on the turn only to see a river that would have given me the low half of the pot. Yes, the books warned me about the danger of that hand.

Odds can be a lot more complicated to calculate than in Hold’em. For instance, once I had AKQ5 and the board was 249T (2 diamonds, 2 hearts, and I have none of either). I have 4 outs (any of the 3’s) for the nut low (and the wheel could get high too) and 12 other cards give me an decent shot at the low half. I have 2 cards for the nut high straight (the other two J’s complete flushes). Technically, any K or Q improves my hand, but that wasn't going to in me anything with the number of players in the pot. I love math (it was my major in college), but facing two turn bets (with more turn bets possible), I folded because I had no idea how to approximate all those calculations and only 6 cards gave me the nuts. Of course I see the river 3 which would have scooped for me a huge pot. I think that was a probably a terrible blunder. I have no idea how many chips were in the pot – while that is almost second nature in Hold’em, I’m too busy figuring out all the card combinations that I wasn’t keeping track.

There are some really tough spots you can be in. 3 limpers and I see the flop for free (4 small bets in pot minus rake). The flop is KhQhJh – I check with 7h4h and a very passive player bets out … and I fold. Turns out he had JJxx so I guess my read was off, but I had a very low flush.

Another time I complete from the SB with QJxx (I forget the rest), and 6 see the flop. Flop is KT9. I bet out and get a few callers. Turn is another T, I check, and BB leads out. I … fold? That was probably also wrong, but again, this guy also wasn’t very aggressive post flop and he bet that paired board very quickly and with a lot of confidence and there are no cards that improve my hand.

I wanted to remember the details of a couple of hands to post as their own thread for comment, but it was difficult remembering all 4 of my cards and the board and the suits and the betting details. I’ll try to keep better track next weekend because …

I CAN’T WAIT TO GO BACK AND PLAY MORE OMAHA!!!

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by daveopie

I don’t think I ever won a hand when I started with A2xx. The dealer kept putting an A or a 2 on the board somewhere, which really sucked.

Before the flop, with a hand containing one ace and one deuce, since you cannot see 48 cards, six of which are aces and deuces, the five card board should not have an ace or deuce C(42,5)/C(48,5) = 42*41*40*39*38/48/47/46/45/44=0.4967973. Thus the final board should have an ace or a deuce 1-0.4967973=0.5032027.
(The have fraction and have not fraction must total one).

In other words, simplistically, your ace or deuce will get counterfeited roughly half the time.

That's out of the three hands out of every five low is possible at all.

And then everyone else will see the flop with A2** too, so that in a full game you'll get fractionated roughly two hands out of five. Put that all together and you end up being the only one making nut low with bare A2** slightly less than roughly one time in eight.
(~.5*.6*.4=~0.12)

Even so, ace-deuce is one of the best two card starting combos. And even if "bare" (bare meaning no trey, four, five, or maybe six) is generally playable.

Having another low card really is a huge boost.

Bingo! You really do want that third wheel card in your hand.

I only raised a few times preflop, once with A236 and once with A246.

Couple of things:
(1) You don't want to be giving away your hand with pre-flop raises. Unless you raise often, your opponents will tend to put you on either A2** or AA** when you do make a pre-flop raise. (And then the good ones will narrow down your range depending on your subsequent play).
(2) I generally base my pre-flop raises on how they will affect my opponents, rather than specifically having certain cards in my hand. (I realize that's vague).

One of those times, three saw the flop of something like JTT and a good player in one of the blinds bet out – I suspect a bluff because he knew I had low cards since I had raised, but there was nothing I could do about it except fold.

You did well to fold, unless in addition to an ace and a deuce, you had something else in your hand that fit well with the flop, (I'm thinking specifically of a ten but there are some other cards you could have that might work).

A3xx is a very difficult hand to play. Twice I called down hoping for a low only to see my opponent turn over A2 for the nut low.

Even more than with A2xx, you want counterfeit protection. A34x or A35x are reasonably playable. Even A36x.

In a nine handed game, holding A3** with no other wheel cards, when the final board has at least three low ranks that are not ace or deuce, without having good reads on your opponents, you should expect at least one opponent to hold A2xx roughly half of the time. That's as simulated (using Wilson, from 48,230/100,000).

A couple times I folded an A3 low draw on the turn only to see a river that would have given me the low half of the pot.

Bummer. I hate zigging when I should be zagging. The key here is learning to read your opponents, but that's a bit too complex to be a beginner's thread topic.

Odds can be a lot more complicated to calculate than in Hold’em. For instance, once I had AKQ5 and the board was 249T (2 diamonds, 2 hearts, and I have none of either). I have 4 outs (any of the 3’s) for the nut low (and the wheel could get high too) and 12 other cards give me an decent shot at the low half.

Don't count the "12 other cards give me an decent shot at the low half." You can make a winning low, but you're also more or less stuck in the pot when you have a loser. They're worth something, because you figure to win more when you do win than it costs you extra when you lose to a better low, but it's kind of a wash. (Meh).

With a non-flushing three on the river, you probably scoop. Someone has to be playing 65** or 76** to beat you for high. Neither 65** nor 76** seems a particularly favorable combination for an opponent to be playing. I think to play 65**, for example, a sensible player may need specifically 65A2, 65A3, 65A4, or 65AA... something like that or maybe have a suited ace in addition to the six and the five. There are the same number of two rank combinations as in Texas hold 'em (78) so for A2, A3, A4, and AA, we're talking roughly one in twenty five.

76** is even more far fetched.

Maybe your opponents are not that conservative, but you get the idea. (You're probably not up against a hand that will not make a higher straight with a three on the river).

But even without the possibility of your being up against a flush draw, it's admittedly complex and thus difficult to count your outs here.

I have 2 cards for the nut high straight (the other two J’s complete flushes). Technically, any K or Q improves my hand, but that wasn't going to in me anything with the number of players in the pot.

Don't even count the kings or queens.

You have two threes and that probably scoop and two other threes that might scoop. Count the two non-flushing threes as 100% outs and the flushing treys as 50% outs. That's the equivalent of three full 100% outs.

And you have two (non-flushing) jacks that scoop if nobody else has KQ** and two jacks that also make a flush. Count the two non-flushing jacks as 75% outs and the two flushing jacks as 25% outs, making a total of two full 100% outs.

Bottom line for your outs
Thus very roughly, you have the equivalent of about 5 scoop outs. And there are always 44 total missing cards on the turn, making your hand odds roughly 8 to 1 against. Crudely, if the amount in the pot at the showdown will be 8 times as much as it costs you to see one more card, then you have favorable odds to play. If not, you should fold.

I love math (it was my major in college),

That should suit you well playing Omaha-8, which (obviously) involves more complex math than either Texas hold 'em or Omaha-high-only.

but facing two turn bets (with more turn bets possible), I folded because I had no idea how to approximate all those calculations

Maybe I've given you an idea how to do it (above). That's about how I do it myself in the heat of battle.

and only 6 cards gave me the nuts. Of course I see the river 3 which would have scooped for me a huge pot. I think that was a probably a terrible blunder.

I'd approximate your hand as worth ~5 scoop equivalent outs (as shown above).

I have no idea how many chips were in the pot – while that is almost second nature in Hold’em, I’m too busy figuring out all the card combinations that I wasn’t keeping track.

You have to either keep track or quickly estimate the pot at showdown. There's no way around it. But fortunately it's fairly straightforward in a fixed-limit game. Just look around the table, count the number of players who saw the flop and count each bet and raise on the first rounds as one times the number of people involved, then do the same for the second betting round, and then count the number of people still in the pot, figure each third round bet and raise worth two times that, and figure at least one opponent will probably call a bet if the river is favorable to you.

In other words, you don't keep track of the amount of money in the pot; you count the number of small bets that must have already gone into the pot and probably will be going into the pot. With odds of roughly 8 to 1 against you, the total of small bets at the showdown has to be 16 for you to have favorable odds to continue. (The actual amount doesn't matter, but in a $4/$8 game, that would be $64 at the showdown).

There are some really tough spots you can be in. 3 limpers and I see the flop for free (4 small bets in pot minus rake). The flop is KhQhJh – I check with 7h4h and a very passive player bets out … and I fold. Turns out he had JJxx so I guess my read was off, but I had a very low flush.

That's why you bet (semi-bluff) with a set when there's a flush possible: to get someone with a baby flush to fold. But he might simply ignorantly have thought he had the best hand. For what it's worth, I would have bet the baby flush, rather than checking.

Another time I complete from the SB with QJxx (I forget the rest), and 6 see the flop. Flop is KT9. I bet out and get a few callers. Turn is another T, I check, and BB leads out. I … fold? That was probably also wrong, but again, this guy also wasn’t very aggressive post flop and he bet that paired board very quickly and with a lot of confidence and there are no cards that improve my hand.

Once you have taken the lead and have bet out of position, when you check a scare card, you should more or less expect someone behind you to bet. And that is what happened.

Flopped straights are notorious for ending up as losers in Omaha-8. It may seem you're getting great odds to call for half a small bet, but that's very deceptive because (unless you get all-in) the betting is not over for you.

But if you call this bet, you also should call the next and it will cost you a minimum of 2 large bets (4 small bets) total to see if Villain is betting three of a kind, a full house, or air. You have to be the judge, and decide for yourself which of the three it is. Knowing which is part of "playing poker."

I wanted to remember the details of a couple of hands to post as their own thread for comment, but it was difficult remembering all 4 of my cards and the board and the suits and the betting details. I’ll try to keep better track next weekend because …

I CAN’T WAIT TO GO BACK AND PLAY MORE OMAHA!!!

It's a great game!

I don't want to clog this thread with debate because this thread is intended to be for newbs to get their fundamental questions answered (by me or someone else). Accordingly, if anyone disagrees with what I've written above, I'll move several posts into a new thread. (Or if nobody finds fault, I'll leave this here).

Anyhow, welcome aboard. We can always use people with math smarts.

Buzz

[str8 or better]

Buzz, what's nice about this thread is that you don't have to be a complete noob to learn a lot from it.
Also, I'd like to thank you for your recent magazine article. You should hand a copy of it to poker dealers who don't deal O8 too often and have a hard time fractionating the pot.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by str8 or better

Buzz, what's nice about this thread is that you don't have to be a complete noob to learn a lot from it.

Thanks, and thanks for your contributions to it.

Also, I'd like to thank you for your recent magazine article. You should hand a copy of it to poker dealers who don't deal O8 too often and have a hard time fractionating the pot.

Nice of you to say so. Thanks.

I started writing this month's article in response to a question from one of the prominent posters to this forum who wondered about how to compute pot odds or implied pot odds.

The next part of the puzzle is what I call "hand odds." And that's harder because of the many different scenarios. I'm currently thinking about how to handle that.

Buzz

[daveopie]

Here is a situation that came up a few times last weekend, and I'm wondering if there is a "standard" way to play a LO8 hand like this.

Let's say I have A29K (ignoring suits) in the SB. 5 people limp, I complete, and BB check. 7 to the flop. This wasn't unusual in the 4/8 game I played last weekend - so there is a variety of players, some good, some not, some passive, some more aggressive. Basically, I have A2 with nothing much to go along with it, lots of opponents, and I'm in EP.

The flop is something like 368 (again, ignoring suits) or 378 or 478. There is some flop so that I have the current lock low and no chance at a high, so I'm playing for half the pot. There are zero cards that help my hand, and 6 cards (the A's and 2's) that kill my hand.

Is this a flop to play the hand cautiously (check/call), to wait until at least the turn to see if I get counterfeited? Or should I play cautiously (check/call) for a different reason - because with 7 people seeing the flop, it is likely that someone else also has A2 so I may be getting quartered.

Or should I be betting out and 3 betting if raised since I have the lock low and I have very good equity (with the possibility of slowing down later if I begin to suspect I may be splitting the low)?

This seems like a common spot, and I don't know what the standard line is, or if there even is one (like, it might be too dependant on the other players).

[str8 or better]

Let's assume 7 people see the flop because they just want to see flops, not because they all had aa**, a2**, a3**, a4 with a suited ace, kk** or some other combo that makes o8 hands playable.
often, someone else is going to show up with a2**, but sometimes not.
so, until proved otherwise, i'm betting my hand mainly for value, but also for other reasons. if i get a lot of action behind me, i'm going to assume there's a very good chance that at least one more player holds a2**, in which case mu equity isn't great, because I pretty much draw (...to not getting counterfeited) to a quarter.
bet and go from there, but generally don't just jam it if there's another bet back to you, no matter how many players are in. by itself, the made nut low is worth a bet on the flop (but not a jam), so a check is just not very good IMO.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by daveopie

Basically, I have A2 with nothing much to go along with it, lots of opponents, and I'm in EP.

There is some flop so that I have the current lock low and no chance at a high, so I'm playing for half the pot. There are zero cards that help my hand, and 6 cards (the A's and 2's) that kill my hand.

It's pretty hard to make a flop such that you have no chance at high. But I do see what you are getting at (realistically playing for half the pot). And there are many flops such that you don't realistically have a very good chance for high.

I want to tell you what I think, as general newb advice for a fixed-limit game, but I'm almost certain other posters have an opposing opinion. And that takes your question out of the realm of the newb's thread. Well... your queston seems borderline newb thread to me.

Spoiler:

In my humble opinion, what is optimal probably depends on your opponents and what they think of you. I'd hang in there for another card, often, but not always, raising.

Is this a flop to play the hand cautiously (check/call), to wait until at least the turn to see if I get counterfeited?

Spoiler:

In my humble opinion, what is optimal probably depends on your opponents and what they think of you. I'd hang in there for another card, often, but not always, raising. (I suspect a more conservative adviser would advise you to fold).

Or should I play cautiously (check/call) for a different reason - because with 7 people seeing the flop, it is likely that someone else also has A2 so I may be getting quartered.

It's not true that "with 7 people seeing the flop, it is likely that someone else also has A2."

However, it is true that you may be getting quartered.

The difference is the difference between "likely" and "may be."

In a full (nine or ten players) loose game, when you hold A2** (no second ace or deuce), and it ends up as the nut low, you figure to get fractionated (mostly quartered or sixthed) approximately two times in every five. That's as calculated. I could tell you exactly how much of either, but I don't think it matters. 2/5 is close enough for what you need. However, often you can get an idea on the basis of how someone is acting, whether he has the same nut low as you or not. That's a part of "hand reading" and falls under the general category of "playing poker." Some Omaha-8 players, even recreational players in a $4/$8 game, are highly skilled at "hand reading." And if you watch the pros on TV, for example Daniel Negreanu and Phil Hellmuth and some others, they're amazing.

Or should I be betting out and 3 betting if raised since I have the lock low and I have very good equity (with the possibility of slowing down later if I begin to suspect I may be splitting the low)?

Depends.

This seems like a common spot,

It is.

and I don't know what the standard line is, or if there even is one (like, it might be too dependant on the other players).

I think different Omaha-8 regulars have different opinions. Come up with a specific example, including the suits of cards, ideally as a hand history, and post it as a separate thread and you might get a better answer. I see that str8 or better has also responded to you and given you his opinion.

Buzz

[str8 or better]

Buzz, from your second spoiler it seems as though you missed the fact the hero flopped the MADE nut low and not just the nut low draw
No I didn't miss it. But I can see how my wording "chasing the low" would make it seem like I did. I'll edit and re-word that second spoiler.
(happens to me a lot actually, no kidding). well, you can look at a made nut low with no counterfeit protection as a draw to not getting counterfeited, but I guess that's not what you meant.
In truth, that is sort of what I meant. I'll edit to somehow make it clear.
At any rate, I believe that even the made nut low isn't worth being too excited about (I still believe hero should bet), when it has no real shot at high or counterfeit protection. Being out of position is yet another reason not to jam the flop with this hand. also, table dynamics DO matter, a lot.

[daveopie]

Str8 and Buzz - thanks for the thoughtful feedback!

I'm used to limit hold'em, and when you flop the nuts, you want to put in as much money as possible to make it expensive for an opponent drawing to outs against you. But it is just now dawning on me how weak flopping the nut low can be in O/8. It's not bad, but not great either.

Someone will have the same low 2/5 (40%) of the time and I'd get 1/4 of the pot. If instead of being in someone's hand, one of those cards shows up on the board, I get none of the pot. There are 6 more A's and 2's in the deck that ruin my hand. Those 6 outs hitting on either of the last 2 streets happens (1-(39/45)*(38/44)) or about 25%. Do those 40% and 25% overlap? Maybe - I'm not sure.

Anyway - the point is that flopping the nut low isn't that great of a hand since so many bad things can happen such as getting quartered or counterfeited. That's very different from Hold'em. There is an OK but not great chance that I'd get the low to myself, so I wouldn't fold unless other players start betting like crazy, and then I should consider getting out. Still, flopping the nut low is a lot better than not flopping the low. Therefore I want to get to showdown somewhat cheaply (but one bet on the flop seems fine). I see it now. Thanks for helping me get there.

Throw in some protection for the low, and it is much more difficult to get counterfeited so I can be a little more aggressive. Throw in some draw at a high hand, and I have a chance to scoop, and I can get a lot more aggressive. Ah ha - THIS is what everyone means when they keep saying play hands that can scoop and only draw to the nuts in O/8. It is slowly starting to make sense.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by daveopie

Str8 and Buzz - thanks for the thoughtful feedback!

You're welcome.

I'm used to limit hold'em, and when you flop the nuts, you want to put in as much money as possible to make it expensive for an opponent drawing to outs against you. But it is just now dawning on me how weak flopping the nut low can be in O/8. It's not bad, but not great either.

Exactly. (It's not bad, but not great either).

Someone will have the same low 2/5 (40%) of the time and I'd get 1/4 of the pot. If instead of being in someone's hand, one of those cards shows up on the board, I get none of the pot. There are 6 more A's and 2's in the deck that ruin my hand. Those 6 outs hitting on either of the last 2 streets happens (1-(39/45)*(38/44)) or about 25%. Do those 40% and 25% overlap? Maybe - I'm not sure.

They do, but it doesn't matter.

More importantly, for the 60% of the time you won't get fractionated, you'll get counterfeited something like 25% of the time as a first approximation. (It's not exactly 25% because if no opponent has an ace plus a deuce, I think there's a slightly greater chance of there being an ace or a deuce on the turn or river).

Anyway - the point is that flopping the nut low isn't that great of a hand since so many bad things can happen such as getting quartered or counterfeited. That's very different from Hold'em.

Yes. It's very different from Omaha-high-only too.

There is an OK but not great chance that I'd get the low to myself, so I wouldn't fold unless other players start betting like crazy, and then I should consider getting out.

Consider, yes. But what to do depends on how you read the particular players who "start betting like crazy." Some opponents are going to "start betting like crazy" because they think they can intimidate you into folding. Other opponents will "start betting like crazy" because they have the nuts. And I suppose there are other reasons why some other opponents "start betting like crazy." I cannot (correctly) make a generalization. For me, it's a matter of playing each individual involved in the hand.

Still, flopping the nut low is a lot better than not flopping the low. Therefore I want to get to showdown somewhat cheaply (but one bet on the flop seems fine). I see it now. Thanks for helping me get there.

OK. You're welcome.

Throw in some protection for the low, and it is much more difficult to get counterfeited so I can be a little more aggressive.

I wouldn't put it that way ("so I can be a little more aggressive"), but OK, the counterfeit protection provided by an extra low card in your hand greatly strengthens your hand when low is possible after the flop or turn.

Throw in some draw at a high hand, and I have a chance to scoop, and I can get a lot more aggressive.

I wouldn't put it that way ("get a lot more aggressive"), but you do want to have a draw at a high hand.

About aggression: I think almost every successful poker player is aggressive. But opinions differ as to how and when to be aggressive. For example, for me, how aggressive to be has some dependence on my opponents. For example, I'll often play the nut low very aggressively if I think there's a good chance of promoting it to a scooper by inducing an opponent to fold a probable better high hand. (But I won't do that against an opponent against whom I don't think it will work).

Ah ha - THIS is what everyone means when they keep saying play hands that can scoop and only draw to the nuts in O/8.

It might be what they mean, but they're not necessarily correct. You should play to scoop. That part is correct. But there's more than one way to play to scoop. And there are different kinds of nuts. (lows, trips, straights, flushes, full houses, quads, straight flushes). The necessity for having them varies.

It is slowly starting to make sense.

Good. Glad to hear it. Good luck.

Buzz