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Old 05-09-2010, 11:42 PM   #16
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Re: confused on sd

so would a 2345r hand be better than A4KQr?
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:41 AM   #17
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Re: confused on sd

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Originally Posted by nyyy1927 View Post
so would a 2345r hand be better than A4KQr?
not on a 238 flop or 258
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Old 05-10-2010, 03:57 AM   #18
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Re: confused on sd

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Originally Posted by nyyy1927 View Post
Hi I'm new to O8 and hi lo games in general. i thought i won the lo here with A2578 because i hold the lowest card in the lo. vilain has 23478 but villain won the lo. what are the rules for showdown arnkings for lo's?

Board: 8s 7h Jd Qd 2d

my hand: Ac 5c 5h Th

villain hand:2h 3c 4s 7c
Tarvaris has explained this perfectly.

Replace the ace with 1 and read backwards.
"87521 > 87432, thus villain has lower hand."

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyyy1927 View Post
so would a 2345r hand be better than A4KQr?
No. A4KQr is a better starting hand than 2345r.

You can get an idea of how good starting hands are by going to ProPokerTools, typing the hand into the box provided, and then clicking on "rank."
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations?g=o8

If you do that with these two hands, specifying that they be rainbow hands by making each card in the hand a different suit, here are the results:
Omaha Hi/Lo Hand Ranking What's this?
Hand Average Rank Best Rank
2s3h4d5c 38.0 38.0

Omaha Hi/LoHand Ranking What's this?
Hand Average Rank Best Rank
As4hKdQc 16.0 16.0

A rank of 1 would be best and 100 would be worst.

To perhaps put the "38" rank of 2345r better in perspective, on average, in a six handed game, you might expect two of the six dealt hands to be better than 2345r, and three of the six dealt hands to be worse.

To perhaps put the "16" rank of A4KQr better in perspective, although some of the time, in a six handed game, you might expect one of the six dealt hands to be better than A4KQr, and four of the six dealt hands to be worse - usually A4KQr would be the best starting hand of the six dealt.

The reason A4KQr is a better starting hand, overall, than 2345r, is because A4KQr has high card strength.

The basic idea is simple. In general, high cards are better for high than middle cards or low cards. By "better for high" we mean they win for high more often. And there's always a winner for high.

By contrast, there's only a winner for low roughly half of the time in actual play. The other half of the time, either low is not possible or nobody qualifies.

In six handed non-folding simulations, there's a low split about six times out of ten, but in actual practice, there's only a low split about five times out of ten, or possibly less in a very tight game. That's because although the board may have three low ranks, and thus enable low, the hand that might have won low will often have been folded before the showdown.
-----
I'm going to move this thread into the beginner's sticky, because that sticky doesn't yet explain reading low hands and the relative value of low hands.

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Old 05-10-2010, 09:38 AM   #19
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

So i've been folding hands like AAKT and KK57. AQJTds (double suited) and KK97ds. is this bad? I am under the impression that i should only play hands that have scoop potential.
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Old 05-10-2010, 10:15 AM   #20
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

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Originally Posted by nyyy1927 View Post
So i've been folding hands like AAKT and KK57. AQJTds (double suited) and KK97ds. is this bad? I am under the impression that i should only play hands that have scoop potential.
What you play often depends on your opponents and your position. I rarely fold AAKT and AQJTds. How, or if, I play KK57 and KK97ds would depend completely on my opponents and position.

Because people often play low cards, if you are at a table and the majority of the people are in the pot pre-flop a hand like AAKT or AQJTds has plenty of scoop potential because most of the low cards have already been dealt out and the board is more likely to come high.

Hands with KK and little else are somewhat difficult to play in my opinion. Hands like KK97ds are basically only good for set mining the Kings. The double suitedness is nice, but if you get any big action when you hit a flush, and the ace of that suite isn't on the board, watch out. When I was first learning I would lose money playing the King high flush too aggressively. Remember that people like to play hands suited to the aces and so if this hand was dealt, it is probably in play.

KK57 has two low cards, but the 5 and 7 will rarely win the low, so once again you are pretty much only playing to hit a set of Kings.

When set mining Kings you also have to ask yourself what hands will give you action once you hit your set. If the flop is K92, how many hands are going to stack off verse you with your set of Kings? Usually none. The times you do get action is usually when you are only a slight favorite or a slight dog with your top set.

My final thought is, don't be afraid to play high only hands depending on the situation. When you do, just remember to play smart and try not to get into situations where you are playing for only half the pot and someone else has the low locked up and is freerolling you.

Hope that helps. Others might have different views than my own, but that's my advice. Good luck.

Last edited by Tarvaris; 05-10-2010 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 05-10-2010, 10:34 AM   #21
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

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Originally Posted by nyyy1927 View Post
So i've been folding hands like AAKT and KK57. AQJTds (double suited) and KK97ds. is this bad?
Tarvaris has given a good answer.

I wouldn't characterize folding these hands as "bad," but it doesn't seem good either, at least for two of these hands. You should probably look them all up yourself to get their relative rankings.

• AAKT even if a rainbow is nice starting hand. I think you should be playing this one.
• (AT)(QJ) double suited is not quite as nice, but still is probably usually the best but sometimes the second best starting hand at a six-max table. I think you should be playing this one too.

• (K9)(K7) double suited can be a more difficult hand to play than either of the two listed above, and it has a couple of serious flaws. The main difficulty comes from playing a second nut flush draw and then the second nut flush if you make a flush. You can fall into a trap and get in trouble if you're not careful. The two serious flaws are (1) the hand has no low potential, and (2) two middle cards (the seven and the nine) are not good in a starting hand. But if you're a good card player and a good card reader, then you probably should want to see the flop with this hand.

• KK75 rainbow is the worst hand of the lot you've listed. It's a hand you should play in a heads-up match, but at a full table it's a speculative type hand. You really need to see a king on the flop to continue, and that only happens about one time in eight. And even when you get a flop with a king, you're not guaranteed a win. You should probably be folding this one pre-flop, in general.

Quote:
I am under the impression that i should only play hands that have scoop potential.
You're right that you should want to scoop. You're right if you think some starting hands have more inherent scoop potential than others. But there's more to it than just that.

All starting hands have some scoop potential. However, some are more likely to scoop than others. In addition, sometimes one-way hands can be played in such a way as to bully opponents into folding and thus be converted from one-way hands into scoopers.

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Old 05-10-2010, 12:25 PM   #22
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

ProPokerTools

Prompted by the extensive use it gets in the forum, decided to go and have a play.

Was surprised to see AAww ranked 1/32, and even more embarrassed at how long it took me to find the 32 rank combo.

Q1. I wasn't able to find the correct syntax to run AA + two wheel cards not being Aces.

Q2. Is it possible to add suitedness to the rankings search, (r for rainbow returns an error) other than assigning a different suit to each card?.
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Old 05-10-2010, 12:52 PM   #23
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

Thanks for all the great info. The hand rankings at pro poker tools are great.
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:03 PM   #24
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

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Originally Posted by akaAlso View Post
Q1. I wasn't able to find the correct syntax to run AA + two wheel cards not being Aces.
Try AAWW!AAAA,AAAW or AAWW!AAAA!AAAW
The exclamation mark in front of something means "bar this"

Quote:
Q2. Is it possible to add suitedness to the rankings search, (r for rainbow returns an error) other than assigning a different suit to each card?.
Specify four different suits. In other words, use AsAhWdWc instead of AAWWr.

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Old 05-10-2010, 05:35 PM   #25
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

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Originally Posted by skoldpadda View Post
Any particular videos or threads for O8 adjustments in a tournament setting? HORSE player here, not a straight O8 MTT. Looking to fine tune for WSOP.

I've seen Death Donkey's vids at DC, but those are geared toward cash games.

Thanks.
The thread in which you've posted is a beginner's thread for beginner's questions. The intent is to have a thread where beginners can ask basic questions about how to play the game of Omaha-8 and get straight answers to their questions.

No offense intended, but if you're fine tuning for the WSOP, your post doesn't really belong here in the Newb's thread.

I'll move your post into it's own thread.

Maybe someone else will give you a better response.

Buzz

Last edited by Buzz; 05-10-2010 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:56 AM   #26
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

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Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
The thread in which you've posted is a beginner's thread for beginner's questions. The intent is to have a thread where beginners can ask basic questions about how to play the game of Omaha-8 and get straight answers to their questions.

No offense intended, but if you're fine tuning for the WSOP, your post doesn't really belong here in the Newb's thread.

I'll move your post into it's own thread.

Maybe someone else will give you a better response.

Buzz
eHY BUZZ,

I'm a NLH player and i've played just a thousand hand of O8. I think it's a very good game for grinders cause if u play a tight solid game you can make a lot of money with it.

I'd like to know what are the stats of a grinder (such as VPIP, PFR, AF, etc.) ? Can u help me?

TY and GL.
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Old 05-14-2010, 07:37 AM   #27
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

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Originally Posted by UtherLightbringer View Post
eHY BUZZ,

I'm a NLH player and i've played just a thousand hand of O8. I think it's a very good game for grinders cause if u play a tight solid game you can make a lot of money with it.

I'd like to know what are the stats of a grinder (such as VPIP, PFR, AF, etc.) ? Can u help me?

TY and GL.
I'll try to answer this. I'll start off by saying there isn't going to be a definitive answer for your question, but I can give you some ranges.

I think for starters your stats should be somewhat affected by your buy-in level and your skill level. The lower the buy-in and the lower the skill, the tighter you should be playing. As you get better at hand reading and interpreting board textures you can loosen up. Also as your opponents get better you will have to loosen up or you will rarely get paid off on your big hands.

I would probably guess, and this is honestly just a guess, that the majority of winning players at Big bet (PL or NL) 08 have a VPIP between 15-45. I'm sure there are outliers in either direction, but that would be the best guess I have for the VPIP range.

PFR is going to very a lot depending on how often you voluntarily put money in the pot. At full ring games I see a lot of low percentages of pre-flop raising. Sometimes even in the range of 0-5. In 6-max games I see much more pre-flop aggression. I would guess that people usually raise between 1/3 and 2/3 of the hands in 6-max games that they voluntarily put money into the pot (once again this is just a guess).

I don't really feel like I understand the aggression factor stat enough to speak about it so I won't talk about that.

The best idea is probably to just find a style that suites you and go with it. Hope that helps.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:55 AM   #28
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

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Originally Posted by Tarvaris View Post
I'll try to answer this. I'll start off by saying there isn't going to be a definitive answer for your question, but I can give you some ranges.

I think for starters your stats should be somewhat affected by your buy-in level and your skill level. The lower the buy-in and the lower the skill, the tighter you should be playing. As you get better at hand reading and interpreting board textures you can loosen up. Also as your opponents get better you will have to loosen up or you will rarely get paid off on your big hands.

I would probably guess, and this is honestly just a guess, that the majority of winning players at Big bet (PL or NL) 08 have a VPIP between 15-45. I'm sure there are outliers in either direction, but that would be the best guess I have for the VPIP range.

PFR is going to very a lot depending on how often you voluntarily put money in the pot. At full ring games I see a lot of low percentages of pre-flop raising. Sometimes even in the range of 0-5. In 6-max games I see much more pre-flop aggression. I would guess that people usually raise between 1/3 and 2/3 of the hands in 6-max games that they voluntarily put money into the pot (once again this is just a guess).

I don't really feel like I understand the aggression factor stat enough to speak about it so I won't talk about that.

The best idea is probably to just find a style that suites you and go with it. Hope that helps.
TY mate,

i play FIXED LIMIT Omaha8 5c/10c on FTP. 6max, both in the LIMIT O8 section and in the 7-game.

I've noticed that it's a bunch of people that tend to see any flop, so i want to encrease the pot if i got hands like AA2K, A234, etc and i try to isolate the blinds when i'm first to act on the D with just an high hand such as AKKJ, KQJT because i know that it's a good h-u hand.

My stats for my first 750h are VPIP 42 PFR 14 with BB/100 11.50. I know that isn't such an high number to analyze, but i think that 11.50 is a good ratio. But i know that growin up in stakes i won't be able to win so much.

On FT there žs such a low action in 6max L O 8 and i have a question for you: in which other poker rooms can i find action 6max ?

TY and GL mate!
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:17 AM   #29
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

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Originally Posted by UtherLightbringer View Post
On FT there žs such a low action in 6max L O 8 and i have a question for you: in which other poker rooms can i find action 6max ?
The only two sites I play on currently are Pokerstars and Fulltilt. Pokerstars in my experience has many more available tables for O8 (both 6-max and full ring). I don't play limit, but from what I've seen PokerStars has a good number of tables at a range of buy-in levels. Possibly someone else might come along with a hidden gem site that has good action, but I'd strongly guess your best bet is to play at PokerStars.
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Old 05-17-2010, 11:08 PM   #30
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Re: Newb thread (thread for newcomer's questions) - includes links to popular wells

A question that could perhaps be answered by using the search function, but I thought it might be useful for other newbs: how does one multi-quote a post I've tried figuring it out on my own, to no avail. Buzz is a master at this, and it seems like a useful thing when trying to respond to a specific point. Cheers.
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