20/40 limit Omaha 8 or better game in southern California. It only plays 8 handed max because of alternating Stud 8 rounds. Often one or two players walking so sometimes plays fairly shorthanded, though I can't remember how many were dealt into this hand. Not a super-aggressive game, but more raising than in most lower- limit live O8 games I have played. Typically one raise preflop; some regs raise a lot, some almost never. Most players very loose preflop. I don't know any dynamics between other two players in this hand, but they likely know each others' play better than I know theirs or they know mine.

Details as best I remember. Preflop some early player limps, middle position V1 (middle aged gambly Asian man) limps, late position V2 (very old passive Asian man) limps.
I complete AKQ3 in SB, BB checks.

Flop K82
I bet; BB and EP fold. V1 and V2 both call.
Standard?

Turn A
I bet, V1 raises. V2 hesitates (but he's very old and slow) and calls. I call.
I don't love this card, but hopefully still ahead.

River 2
I check, V1 checks, V2 bets.
Seems ugly. What do I do?

Comments on other streets also welcome.

I'm folding. I just don't see our top two being good against two opponents here. Trips, flush, all got there. I'm out.

Last thing I want to do is call and get squeezed for another bet by V1. I'll save the bets and fold now.

I raise pre but it can go either way. When players are limping in really weak, though, I prefer a raise.

Flop is standard; I wouldn't want to try and c/r because the lineup was too passive, so, rather than lose value here, I'd rather just bet out like you did; you're representing quite a few hands w/this flop anyway so its not as if you're going to be easily pegged.

The turn card sucks(e.g.) you just lost half the pot and now there are flush, wheel, and Broadway draws out there.

The way the hand played out, you can probably call the river and not worry about V1 going for a checkraise because if he can't bet this river card after raising you on the turn, then he's probably not thrilled w/that card either. But, do you have the best hand vs. V2? If I had to guess, I would say V2 has deuces full of Aces; my reason for that is the slight hesitation that he made on the turn(e.g.) there was something about that A that made him ponder. Did he just hit Aces up? Trip Aces? A flush draw? Something about that card made his hand and when I think about all the possible holdings that he might reasonably hold, I think you are no good, and, even though it'll probably cost you just the one bet, I would fold.

If V1 could beat your top 2-pair on the turn, he would now have a boat. I think a boat still bets the river, but maybe V1 is feeling tricky who knows. Other plausible hands for V1 are AK, A8, or something like K's up with a good low. You said yourself he is "gambly" so I think his range is wide enough to be ok on his side.

V2 cold-called 2 bets on the turn, but I think any read into his hesitation is pretty slim... could mean he was thinking of 3-betting vs calling rather than not calling vs folding, how could we know the difference? I guess you said he is passive but I think V2 having 34 or 35 could play the same way as a boat or flush, and it checked to him so green light to bet a good low. Like I said I'm really not worried about V1 unless he wimped out with a low flush. It's a horrible runout and a bad spot but I probably still make a crying call.

Anybody have thoughts on check/calling instead of betting the turn? We are probably good for half, sure, but the only rivers I can think of that aren't scary is a non-spade 6, 7, or 9 (and obviously A or K is swell). A good low hand is probably going to bet the turn "for" us, but may be raising if we lead which is uncomfortable.

It is ugly.

Fold.

Without V1 still in the hand, I'd call. With V2 betting and V1 yet to act it's a fold.

Completion on first betting round looks right to me. I think your starting hand is strong enough to play out of position in a fixed-limit game. But since you're out of position I wouldn't raise.

Betting this flop looks right to me. I don't know what "standard" is.

Five of you saw the flop. Let's presume that the two opponents who continued after the flop had a better fit with the flop than the two who folded. What can they have to continue here?

Ugh! Check

I think this is where being out of position hurts you. You can't want to bet this horrid card which virtually destroys your low, puts another spade on the board, and sticks you in the hand with top two pairs... but if you don't bet it's awkward. (You miss a bet if you have the winner, and if V1 or V2 bet behind you, you can't tell why... and you'll really hate it if you check, V1 bets, and V2 raises).

But you have to ask yourself why V1 and V2 both called your flop bet. Much here depends on how various other hands have been played (however we don't have that information).

You might miss a bet here if you check, you don't want to give V1 or V2 a free draw to spades, and a bet might induce an opponent to fold a winning low or non-nut spade draw. However, I think I'd check here. Although you might still win low with a live three, that A virtually destroyed your low and probably made low for an opponent. If not, maybe you'll get checks behind you.

I think this is a mistake... too aggressive.

OK. I hate this call, but I hate a fold more.

V1's raise could be an attempt to knock out V2 and isolate you. V1 might do this with a low only hand. Or he could do it with low plus a draw, perhaps for the spade flush. Or he could do it with high only.

Hard to say what would have happened if you checked the turn.

Buzz

Just a few more comments. I obviously hated that the turn card took away my likely best low dray, but it is still just slightly possibly that no one else made a low. And it could not have hurt me for high. If anyone is ahead for high they were already ahead, and I could have just overtaken someone else's two pair.

If I had checked the turn and everyone else had checked then I would know I had been ahead and should have bet. If it was bet I still wouldn't have known where I was at. Honestly even looking back it seems that I was very unlikely to be raised, but it did happen.
I really didn't know what to think when I was raised on turn, but that guy was very aggressive and seemed to bet and raise in odd spots, so I didn't think I was necessarily beat. It does make for a lot of bad river cards though.

I really hated the river, mostly because it made the backdoor flush. Also a decent chance someone could have a 2 here. Hoping maybe someone else will chime in, then I will give results.

This is a common way cards hurt you. Often best not to go for what looks like slim value if a lot of cards will have you folding or cryingly call later.

Yes, but even if no one has a low, YOU have no backup if your high is no good. I would MUCH rather showdown Kings and Eights and the nut low vs. top two/no low. That turn card was horrible. Period.

When a low is possible, obv. you always want to have a two-way hand, especially when you hold the nut low, that way, you can jam the pot and A)get a bigger reward at the end or B) get a better high hand to fold and put yourself in the position to hog the whole pot; and that's the importance of having a two-way hand or a nut hand in one direction, because when you wind up with top two/no low, you're often going to be finding yourself just giving half the pot away to really weak lows when you're not comfortable betting/jamming with just two pair. Just basic stuff really.

Bottom line, even if the Ace didn't hurt you for high, it has definitely hurt you for how you will proceed with your hand from that point on, thus, you will have a harder time scooping, and you will win less when you chop, most likely.,

True. Not true! The turn card put a flush draw, a wheel draw and a Broadway draw (none of which you have) on the board.

Omaha-8 is a drawing game.

You had some good draws before the flop, and you still had some draws after the flop. But the turn completely ****ed you... took away your own draws and created some other possible draws for your opponents, V1 and V2.

In my opinion you're being way, way too optimistic.

I disagree.

True.

Too late the phalarope. (the name of a depressing best seller book I read back in the early fifties).

Timing is important. Once you make the wrong move, subsequent actions are off.

I think there's a greater chance V1 or V2 have trips+full house+quads than V1 or V2 made the flush. I'll simulate that for you (using Wilson). 100,000 runs should be enough. I'll give two opponents blank cards and compare made flushes with trips, full houses, and quads.

seat 8 ends up with a spade flush 21465
seat 9 ends up with a spade flush 21258

seat 8 ends up with quads 659
seat 9 ends up with quads 677
Those quads are all quad deuces.

seat 8 ends up with a full house 10490
seat 9 ends up with a full house 10587
Most, but not all, of those full houses are deuces over.

seat 8 ends up with trips 8002
seat 9 ends up with trips 8125
Those trips are all trip deuces.

for seat 8, 659+10490+8002=19151
for seat 9, 677+10587+8125=19389

I was wrong. The spade flush is the greater threat. But it's close.

OK, but I don't think results matter much for the purpose of this discussion. In my opinion, your correct move was to check the turn, planning to fold to a bet. And I think not to do so is a major error... a "big" mistake.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

I would disagree on folding the turn. I think folding the river is correct. I think c/f the turn is way too nitty IMO and can leave us vulnerable to passive play in the future. Granted any card on the river but a 6,7,9 will produce a straight/trips/flush. I think we still should peel and evaluate the river.

A lot of times you'll catch a 4 or 5 on the river counterfeiting our opponents and we snag 3/4 or at least half.

Thanks for everyone's input. Maybe checking the turn would have been a better option.

Anyway though, I folded the river and V1 called.

V1 had A456 for the third nut low and got a quarter
V2 had A458 for Aces and eights plus the third nut low and got three-quarters.

I, of course, would have gotten half the pot had I called.

V1's turn raise still strikes me as totally bizarre, but then I did know he was gambly.
V2's play may be reasonable, especially if he knows V1 is spewy.

I don't feel as bad about folding the river now that I see many others would have done the same, but it does make me think that in this game I should take people's bets a lot less seriously in the future and should be calling in similar thin spots. Of course it could be that their ranges when taking the same actions have me crushed, I'm really not sure.

Any other comments about the play in this game moving forward would still be appreciated.

Calling could be fine. You're basically investing 1bb to win half pot (5bb). V2 could be on a low or a 2 here but rarely both. V1 probably doesn't have a 2 or FH. So 5:1 odds on a guessing game, I have no problem taking that.

Puke first then call. Lol to folding turn it's prlly closer to a 3bet than a fold. River is the worst card in the deck but when the original raiser can't find a bet it's a puke call. I'd just call pre but raise if the 3 was a 2 or the Q was a heart. Betting flop and turn are std

I'm curious where this game is, was not aware of 20-40 OE in socal.

I'd complete pre, check flop with intention to raise frequently, check-call turn and fold river, but I don't think I'm very good at this game and just go off instinct 😞.

20/40 OE game at Bicycle, it is regular and generally goes every day.

That's awesome, I like the Bike except the food. Does the 20 LHE still go there? Sorry to derail.

Would really like to make it out there for some LAPC events this year but work is probably too busy.

Yes, the 20/40 holdem goes every day also. Usually one table of each, sometimes two.

Well it's after the results but at first glance without a specific read the river still looked like a basic L08 play where you don't have to like it but you do have to call and betting the turn is standard for a few reasons (folding 67xx, random pairs, those few times where you're still favorite to scoop, rest of the hands you would bet etc.)

i'd fold river. the rest looks totally standard.

Do they usally play with a kill or 1/2 kill?

Not a kill, but an "action bet". Check my recent post in the 'Bicycle Casino thread for explanation.

LOLLIVEPOKER

You played it fine, OP.