Buzz in the DS he says the two high cards are suited to the two low cards.

In the S he does not say but we would obviously hope it was the high card which was suited.

Thank you.

Buzz

Its difficult to know what stakes to play, because you want a sensible game but without giving away money. At present I am getting position on bad players, but I am bad myself so I'm not going to get rich!

I seem to remember the Tenner starting hands to be quite tight. These books tend to focus on full ring? The problem you mention in the last paragraph is absolutely the thing I am having problems with. I even timed out the nut low on the river one time, but that was because I was still struggling to work out what my hand was lol. I think for those of us new to the game its difficult to judge the strength of your hand. For example, you have two pair and its three handed. I'd say I'm struggling with this more with the high hands than the low ones. I have folded the best hand more than once, but I think the big problem is wanting to see a showdown when I am beat. I also struggle to adjust my ranges for playing in late position.

Sounds like we are in the same boat mate and there's only one paddle

The thing I probably find hardest to do is lay down the nut low when I know I'm going to get quartered, but I'm getting there slowly.

I think it is easier to keep things in perspective if you think about how much money you will win/lose rather than think about winning the hand. If you get quartered you have won part of the hand but you have usually lost money.

very rare that you should fold nut low in a limit game

Understood Lucius but these are excerpts from Mastering Omaha Poker by Tenner/Krieger.

"When you have made the nut low on the flop and you are sure your going to be quartered, you have our permission to muck your hand, especially when you have no backup against being counterfeited."

"If your Holding AKQ2 it may look good if the flop is 654 but if you suspect one of your opponents also has A2 then it's sort of like Heads they win Tails we tie. and that's not a rosy picture."

Not disagreeing with you just showing what is in some of the books.

100% agree with this...

ok but first of all the pot has to be 3 way or HU for you to not break even on a quarter on every bet that goes in, second of all the pot has to be pretty small, and thirdly you have to have absolutely no draw for high

as for their example, 654 is good enough to continue with with AKQ2 unless it's bet and raised in front of you and at least one of those players plays tight preflop, and if pot is anything like reasonable, never folding double suited if have both bd flush draws

if you want a better example, super system 2 gives it, board is 678 and you have AKQ2 and bet and raised in front, the difference between examples is you have a wheel draw in 1st example (which doesnt change your hand much except now you dont get quartered vs 2 pair and sets and you chop with other guys nut low if he dont have deuce to six or three to seven or four to eight) whereas in example 2 you have zilch

what's really important is that when you get quartered, it is not a big deal. in PL, you get half your stack back if it all goes in, but in limit, you are getting half of each bet back, and that isn't and shouldn't be painful especially considering a lot of times you think you are quartered you actually get half and they flip over weird high hands with or without worse lows, this makes you realise folding is a mistake.

but all this should be greatly distinguished from having nut low DRAW as that is a whole different kettle of fish and times to fold that are far greater

I agree in theory. The problem is, at least at the low limits I play, even when I have a great read on a player, it is exceptionally rare that I know my opponent has exactly the nut low. I might figure it out eventually, but probably not until at least the turn. And by that point, there is too much in the pot to fold.

To illustrate, if you and 2 other people each put in 4 chips each for a turn or river bet, and you get quartered, you would get back 3 of those 4 chips back. You lose 1/4 of what you put in. If after the flop betting you realize you are getting quartered, you need to decide how many bets will go in on the turn and river, where you lose 1 chip each bet, and compare that against 1/4 of what is already in the pot and pick which is larger. For the fold to be correct, it would have to be a small pot preflop, and with 2 opponents you know will put in multiple raises on the turn/river. I'm not saying to never fold when you flop the nut low - just that it is rare and don't overuse this play.

grunta, i don't know how to put this gently, but many poker books contain strategy which is mediocre/out of touch with modern games at best, and terrible at worst. books that say things like 'don't raise preflop,' 'donk to find out where you're at,' 'raise for information,' 'put him on exactly hand X,' etc are going to fall into that category.

they usually also don't mention important fundamental things like equity, ranges, and so on.

you have to remember/realize that lots of these books are written by people who were winning in live poker games in the 1980s and 1990s when all you had to do to win was fold preflop some of the time.

Brilliant. This is exactly what you have to consider.

I like some things about that book. They're writing for a total newbie who, without consciously playing tight, is going to get slaughtered chasing terrible flush or low draws or bottom pair as a two pair draw or whatever. I think their advice is fine if you're starting out and trying to learn to break even.

It sort of bugs me that Zee implies PFR for value is not worth the variance it creates. I mean, i hate variance more than most, but if you have an equity advantage and a playable hand postflop, press it!

(Reference BBB's comment. It would be interesting if Ray saw this thread and explained whether his reasoning has changed over the years.)


...right before calling you with J74 2 and scooping with a flush when the ace of hearts falls on the river?

Balance is helpful against tougher players but in a typical 3/6, 4/8 game, it's a waste.

If i think it will limit the field, i'm more likely to raise A3K or A3BB than A3W. A3W is a volume hand, like suited connectors in HE, that drags a huge pot when it connects in a multiway pot. I also like to raise KK32, A4JJ, etc. if it will limit the field.

In 6-way pots you're never supposed to win the majority of them. You're going to win the biggest ones, because you'll make hands that you can bet down or jam and have outs to scoop or 3/4. Sounds like you're thinking about it the right way.


On a single river bet, you get at least 3/4 of it back. If SPR=1, they bet pot, you call all-in, now the pot is 3x original pot. You get 1/4 of 3x, which is 3/4x. If you'd folded, you'd have lost what was in the middle, so you stuck in 1x pot to get three-quarters of the money you stuck in back.

If you've been calling down multiple streets with the flopped nut low to get quartered, then yeah, you're losing half of all that action.
But yeah, what LUCIUS said, you should almost never fold a made nut low in limit. The exception is (1)smallish pot (2)raising war (3) almost sure one of the raisers has your low. (4) no cfeit protection is important too.


Yep. I don't fold this enough.

As long as we're talking general raise strategy....

What about high-only hands? My understanding is, high-only hands are drawing hands (drawing at a high board), so you want to keep opponents in it. However, AA and KK are going to play better shorthanded. Generally i raise those two and limp the rest to try to create a big pot.

Note i'm talking about good Broadway-only hands like KKJT. Not sure AAT9 or KKJ9 are playable without one and two suits, respectively.

Well the thing is, even HU or 3-way, high hands are seldom going to have much of an equity edge even over a random crappy hand with any 2 low cards.

There might be some deceptive value to raising against thinking opponents though- If the flop comes out low they might just fold a weak low putting you on A2/A3, but if it comes out high in your sweet spot they might take a shot at you or call down light.

When you say you want to keep your opponents in it, do you mean exclusively on a high board? Come to think of it, if the board comes split, say two high cards and two low cards by the turn, do we still want to keep people in - it favours us to have a few villains fighting over the low hand while we take the high one.

So hands like AKQJ, KQJT ds - we would open limp from early position?

My MO has been to open raise high only hands if I play them, and limp with lower hands thinking I can get it multiway and possibly scoop a big pot when I hit. I had not thought of a high hand as being a drawing one.

Often times high-only hands hold up very well (preflop equity-wise) when there are a ton of players in the pot playing mostly good starting hands containing lots of low cards, amirite?

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

124,990 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KcQcQsJs	25.70%	23,213	39,935	1,289	0	0
25%	18.55%	8,265	19,801	2,603	12,788	13,195
25%	18.48%	8,214	19,771	2,603	12,656	13,215
25%	18.65%	8,326	19,926	2,667	12,826	13,236
25%	18.62%	8,298	19,809	2,700	12,790	13,153

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

81,278 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AcKcQsJs	23.15%	13,214	21,375	3,536	0	0
25%	19.27%	6,224	13,528	2,266	8,451	6,254
25%	19.33%	6,358	13,553	2,208	8,582	6,116
25%	19.14%	6,175	13,459	2,144	8,393	6,216
25%	19.11%	6,102	13,434	2,226	8,401	6,274

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

129,790 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KcQsJcTs	24.81%	22,572	39,655	2,721	0	0
25%	18.82%	8,862	20,702	3,001	13,499	13,482
25%	18.83%	8,814	20,769	2,974	13,399	13,693
25%	18.80%	8,699	20,780	3,030	13,380	13,548
25%	18.75%	8,753	20,685	3,047	13,176	13,604