PokerStars - $1+$0.10|30/60 Hi/Lo - Omaha - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (BB): 2,212.00
UTG: 550.00
UTG+1: 930.00
MP: 1,435.00
MP+1: 710.00
CO: 2,285.00
BTN: 2,910.00
SB: 1,158.00

SB posts SB 15.00, Hero posts BB 30.00

Pre Flop: (45.00) Hero has 3 K 6 J

UTG calls 30.00, UTG+1 calls 30.00, fold, MP+1 calls 30.00, fold, BTN calls 30.00, SB calls 15.00, Hero checks

Flop: (180.00, 6 players) J 4 J
SB bets 30.00, Hero calls 30.00, UTG calls 30.00, UTG+1 calls 30.00, MP+1 calls 30.00, BTN calls 30.00

Turn: (360.00, 6 players) 6
SB bets 60.00, Hero calls 60.00, fold, UTG+1 calls 60.00, MP+1 calls 60.00, BTN calls 60.00

River: (660.00, 5 players) 2
SB bets 60.00, Hero raises to 120.00, UTG+1 raises to 180.00, MP+1 calls 180.00, fold, SB calls 120.00, Hero raises to 240.00, UTG+1 calls 60.00, MP+1 calls 60.00, SB calls 60.00

Hero shows 3 K 6 J (Full House, Jacks full of Sixes) (Pre 17%, Flop 37%, Turn 73%)
UTG+1 shows A 3 T 2 (Two Pair, Jacks and Twos) (Pre 32%, Flop 12%, Turn 23%)
MP+1 mucks 8 Q A 5 (One Pair, Jacks) (Pre 31%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
SB mucks 4 3 8 4 (Full House, Fours full of Jacks) (Pre 19%, Flop 51%, Turn 3%)
Hero wins 810.00
UTG+1 wins 810.00

This is the wrong way to think about poker. The point of any thread should be to learn to make the best decisions.

This is being results-oriented. Our best decision is what it is regardless of his specific hand. We're playing against his range. Against his range, I think you should raise the flop (although it's close as I mentioned previously).

Leroy's 100% correct of course but hopefully grunta is just getting lost in the semantics. Yes, of course the very very long term result matters, but we get a good long term result by seeking excellence in our decision making process, not by obsessing over how every hand turns out based on cards we can't control or based on a very specific combination of hole cards that we couldn't possibly have narrowed down so tightly.

Very interesting. I understand where grunt is coming from. There are times when we are encouraged not to raise. Perhaps it is when we have the nut low, but could be sharing the nut low with somebody else and risk being quartered (or worse). I'm not sure if there are cases with the high. Perhaps when we might be sharing the high but there is a low out there?

The fact that we play straight after the donker is important here (relative position). I mean, if we were last to act on the flop it must be a clear raise. Here there is an argument to wait to the turn. If we wait to the turn, we are encouraging low draws to peel the flop. If the turn was not a low card, all those hands can get out more cheaply than if we had raised the flop. The argument sometimes used in limit holdem is to wait for the turn in some spots as you are more likely to drive out players there - but here it doesn't seem to be that situation. We feel very good about our hand.

That argument typically applies to situations where longshot draws would be correct to call for two small bets, but not for two big ones; or when the draw might make a marginal mistake on the flop but a huge mistake on the turn. (For an example of the first case, in SSHE there's a KK hand in an immense pot that loses to a gutshot that was correct to call the flop for 2 SB in a huge pot.) That can't apply here. Backdoor low draws shouldn't call the flop getting only 10:1 full pot. If they do call, then their equity plummets to zero on a big turn card or rises markedly on a small turn card. Now they'll be getting something like 7:1 full pot and will obviously call the nut low draw.

The fact that they "can get out more cheaply" with zero equity on the turn isn't a good reason to flat-call the flop. We don't want them to make correct folds.

That makes sense. So would you raise on the flop or the turn in this case, and why?

I'm leaning toward raising on the flop because, as str8 has mentioned, the parlay of possibly having the best hand, having a lot of high equity if I don't have the best hand, and promoting my 63 backdoor is worth a lot. (At the table, I might flat call without thinking it through adequately.) But more importantly, slowplaying the turn can never be OK.

a couple of thoughts:

1) LO8 and LHE are very different in terms of pushing vs pulling or schooling vs reverse schooling - in LO8, good hands often like a large field of opponents. in LHE, however, good (or even great!) hands would usually rather get it heads up.

2) in this particular hand, if bare backdoor low draws (even A2) don't get the right price to call one bet, then based on that variable alone, we'd normally prefer calling to raising. as we all know, we make money by causing our opponents to make mistakes.

one may say that by raising the flop we overprotect against backdoor low draws, who'd incorrectly call one bet but correctly fold for two.

if an opponent would chase any draw for any price, then by all means, raise your good hands and maximize your profits!

overprotection happens a lot in big bet poker (specifically on the turn with a good but not great value hand), but may also occur in limit poker.

anyway, very interesting stuff. lots to consider...

Lots of them. Mostly with straights but also with two pairs and the same kicker or trips and the same kicker when there's a pair on the board. More rarely with a full house (eg. board is JJ47K and two players have KJ**). At any rate, there are lots of instances of getting quartered for high, but it's more common for low because everybody (or almost everybody) is going to see the flop with A2** but not everybody is going to see the flop with KJ**.

Buzz

However, it would require a pretty strong read to play your KJ boat timidly in fear of running into better. Note that in that particular example is a high board so you can only lose money if you're against KK; getting quartered isn't possible.

As a general principle, though, on the river you might often flat-call with the nuts when you expect the value from marginal overcalls to exceed the value from raising the bettor. The classic example is when the bettor is winning one direction, you're going in the other, you expect a raise to shut out other callers, and you don't ever expect the bettor to fold.

It could also be other cases too -- suppose the river completes your nut flush on a high board, the bettor is to your right, the players to your left are loose but not loose enough to call two bets with anything but the nuts, and you suspect the bettor of being capable of bet/folding non-nut flushes. Now raising is fruitless, because no one will pay you off, but smooth calling could get overcalls.

Lots to think about on the river in O8.

I spent most of the time thinking this was a pot limit hand which would be a ton easier to play, but as soon as I realized it was limit, I had to completely change the thought process (limit is too slow imo).

I agree with Buzz that you should raise because once you see the turn, playing against loose/passive players at micro stakes, like you said, they will limp to the river.

At low levels of 30/60 I think many of these players will tend to come along because it feels "cheap" to call or they might get excited to be involved in a bigger pot, so I wouldn't mind a reraise on the flop. You might loose some value with the reraise, but once you see this turn playing limit, you are almost guaranteed to see a river with multiple players and the possibility of losing half the pot.

My fault... I don't think full houses are good examples to use for getting quartered for high... I just meant that it's possible to get quartered holding a full house. I think KJ** hands do get quartered a lot, but usually as straights or two pairs hands.

Although I wouldn't term it a "general principle," I would flat call if I expected a raise from me would knock out one contributor in a three-handed contest but not the other, and if I didn't have a realistic chance of taking the whole pot after getting it heads-up to the showdown. I like considering and need to consider each situation individually.

The general principle for me is to be more alert to the possibility of scooping than afraid of the possibility of getting fractionated.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Buzz

Sorry you mistook the hand in this thread for a pot-limit hand. Makes a big difference in how best to play the hand.
For your future reference:
Threads in this forum that are limit (also called fixed-limit) are all labeled with a .
Threads in this forum that are pot-limit) are all labeled with a .

I'd rather play pot-limit too, but basically there is no such thing as pot-limit cash games of Omaha-8 in casinos I visit. (Sometimes there's a pot-limit Omaha-high-only game running).

Exactly. Thank you.

Buzz

Cool thanks for the insight.



Ya I hate that the cash game is never played so I'm always trying to make any PLO8 tourneys I can. The Legends of Poker series is starting soon at the Bicycle Casino and they've got an event on 7/30! Its a $200 + 35 with a one optional add-on.

I have read about this somewhere, but I just can't remember. Could somebody please briefly explain the following terms for me?

* pushing/pulling
* schooling/reverse schooling

Thanks