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Originally Posted by mixgameADDict
LO8: are low and high stakes completely different games?
No. It's the same game. But the players are different. One would imagine the players at high stakes games are, on the average, better players than players at low stakes games.
And, at either level, I believe the better players adapt to their opponents.
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As a person who has played a meaningful amount of both low and high stakes O8, it's self evident to me that the games are completely different and have different optimal strategies and standard lines.
I believe they have different optimal strategies and standard lines. Yet they're (obviously) not completely different games.
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Yet it seems that when hands are discussed here, many don't understand this and use what they've learned from what they see at their normal stakes and at least implicitly assume that play at other stakes is similar. Perhaps not the same, but at least kissing cousins.
I'm guilty of this. And it's because I believe high stakes limit Omaha-8 and low stakes limit Omaha-8
are kissing cousins.
In Rush's post, "Call the checkraise or fold?," I tried to make sense of UTG's play. I'll concede the 3rd round checkraise from UTG
could be a bluff... even from someone who never has gotten caught bluffing. NickMPK seems to believe this is a great spot for BB to bluff. I think it's a dangerous spot for BB to bluff/check/raise unless he's pretty certain Hero's 1st round raise implied a pair of aces.
But I'll admit I'm unfamiliar with $40/$80 stakes play.
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I think this is wrong and that low and high stakes games are completely different animals from one another (midstakes are a bit of a hybrid). Or perhaps one is an animal and one is a plant they are so unalike.
I'll concede play is different. Yet there are some principles that are the same.
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And therefore the optimal strategies for each stake should also be very different.
That makes good sense to me. I believe your optimal strategy should adapt to the other players in your game. If they're stronger players, if they bluff more, if they're more aggressive, if they're better card readers... whatever... I believe you adapt your game to their play.
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Low stakes games: 6/12 and below?
High stakes: 40/80+
Players in game
- Low limit: almost always FR, 9 or 10 handed.
- High limit: often short handed. 5-7 handed play is fairly common.
Players to the flop
- Low limit: multiway. Not unusual to see 5 or more players. ALWAYS a flop.
- High limit: very often HU or 3 players w blinds involved. Sometimes no flop at all.
It makes sense that there are more better players at high limits. (And presumably an adaptation would be to play more tightly).
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Aggression:
- Low limit: very low. Typically will only see betting and raising w very strong preflop hands or the nuts postflop. Lots of limping, overcalling, and checking. 3b seldom seen unless "action" players are juicing the pot.
Yes. (I agree).
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- High limit: aggression is the name of gsme. Preflop open is standard/limps are rare, 3b are frequent, thin v-betting and raising are common. Cbetting is standard.
I cannot comment intelligently because I don't play high limit. Have you played enough in enough different places to be certain of your generalization?
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Bluffing:
- Low limit: rarer than a virgin in a whorehouse
It's not
that rare - but I like your analogy! And I'll concede most players don't bluff much. I do occasionally bluff, but not as much as I bluff in no-limit-Texas-hold-'em.
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- High limit: standard part of the game
I cannot comment intelligently because I don't play high limit. Have you played enough in enough different places to be certain of your generalization?
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Deception
- Low limit: low. Will occasionally see big hands slow played or x/r's but otherwise rare
I think it's specific player dependent.
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- High limit: abounds. Bluffs, slowplays, and x/r's common
I cannot comment intelligently because I don't play high limit. Have you played enough in enough different places to be certain of your generalization?
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Blind play:
- Low stakes: preflop folds rare, postflop abc.
I see this as specific opponent dependent. (Different opponents play differently. Some play better than others).
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- High stakes: tighter pre, postflop "creativity" is not unusual
I cannot comment intelligently because I don't play high limit.
Shown above. Please don't misunderstand me. I very much appreciate your ideas. But I think we can attribute the differences between play at high stakes and play at low stakes to various factors, most notably more better players at high stakes... also motivation.
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Guess I'm just stating the obvious from what I've seen, but I've also only played in SW US market.
Your observations are much appreciated.
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Do these rules apply everywhere or no?
I don't know. Be interesting to read other possible responses.
Thanks for your well thought out opening post.
Buzz