LO8 FR Big hand in worst possible position - Page 2 - Omaha 8 Poker Forum

BeakWetter · 07-24-2012, 05:32 PM

This hand is just easier if we lead the flop.
Middle set, backdoor draw to the wheel, 4-way pot... just all seems to tell me b/3-b.
Lead turn with 3rd nuts and call or 3-bet depending on action/player.

grunta0 · 07-24-2012, 09:46 PM

"
I have an advantage with the way the hand played out compared to if I had led out. With the button being the one betting the flop, I have shown no strength - I have given nothing away.

On the turn I feel there is a much greater chance of the action being checked around, making a donk bet more enticing.

I think you can see that if we always bet out when we have a strong hand and check when we have a weak one, it is easy for thinking players to read our hand-range. Again, it may be that when Slansky wrote his book most players were concerned more with their own cards than trying to hand-read the cards of others."

You are preaching to the choir however I must use the same arguments that were used against me. You are getting no additional money in the pot and giving a chance (albeit slim) for someone to outdraw you.

RedHot · 07-25-2012, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain R

You could lead the turn with a 5 or some kind of combo draw (flush draw and straight draw, flush draw and pair, etc.) if you really are concerned about balance.

But I'm pretty certain that balance in a full-ring multiway pot is unimportant.

Same in LHE. When you go 7-ways to the flop, balance is unimportant and the best hand (or most equity or whatever) is going to win. You stick in (lots of) bets with the best hand and that's all there is to it.

If you consider that each player has twice as many cards, a 4-way pot in LO8 is basically like taking an 8-way pot in LHE. It's actually more, because there are more than 2x as many combos in a 4-card hand vs. a 2-card hand.

When you're playing SH or the pot gets HU on the flop, then worry about balance. BTW, c/c'ing the flop is a really bad line (well, folding is worse) -- there are way too many draws on this flop to c/c the flop. You're going to miss value vs. OE, other two pairs, and having gutshots profitably call the flop is terrible.

Very good points. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the gutshot peeling thing. We are talking about offering 10.5:1 rather than 9.5:1 which isn't a huge change in odds. With four cards, if you think your gutshot is going to be good you can find other things in those 4 cards to justify the peel. The reason not to is more likely to be the action following you. There is less chance of heavy action behind in check-call than in donk.

Honestly I think people will look back in 10 years time and laugh at the idea of not having an intricate multiway balancing strategy. However we are in 2012 and it seems too super-complicated to work it out. However, I would prefer not to telegraph my hand when I don't have to. I concede it is a common and successful move multiway in limit holdem. FWIW there are/were quite a few limit holdem players I could find a quick fold against when they donk out multiway on the flop, but that is an individual read thing.

I agree the greater number of cards makes it much more dangerous to slowplay a big hand. I have likely overvalued my hand somewhat on the flop.

RedHot · 07-25-2012, 05:57 AM

It sounds like the best move is to bet out on the flop.

As played:

On the turn, I bet and only button called. I bet on the river and got called again.

Captain R · 07-25-2012, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHot

Very good points. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the gutshot peeling thing. We are talking about offering 10.5:1 rather than 9.5:1 which isn't a huge change in odds. With four cards, if you think your gutshot is going to be good you can find other things in those 4 cards to justify the peel. The reason not to is more likely to be the action following you. There is less chance of heavy action behind in check-call than in donk.

Actually, I was talking of c/r'ing vs. c/c'ing.

C/r'ing offers people behind you 11.5:2 on a flop call, which makes a gutshot unprofitable.

Also, if there is going to be heavy action after you if you c/c, there will be heavy action (possibly even more) if you c/r.

But repeat after me. Middle set is not a huge hand in LO8. It has its more than its share of value, but really...

Quote:

Honestly I think people will look back in 10 years time and laugh at the idea of not having an intricate multiway balancing strategy. However we are in 2012 and it seems too super-complicated to work it out.

I think from a theoretical POV, you can have a balanced strategy. In a 7-way raised pot, you should probably bluff about 1:1000 times (or whatever). But it's so low as to be immaterial. I mean, I pure bluffed a 5-way raised pot on the river a couple of weeks ago, but the opportunities are very low.

Basically as the number of players (and number of combos of cards) increases, the ratio of bluffs:value-hands decreases. At some point it approaches zero.

str8 or better · 07-26-2012, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain R

Actually, I was talking of c/r'ing vs. c/c'ing.

C/r'ing offers people behind you 11.5:2 on a flop call, which makes a gutshot unprofitable.

Also, if there is going to be heavy action after you if you c/c, there will be heavy action (possibly even more) if you c/r.

But repeat after me. Middle set is not a huge hand in LO8. It has its more than its share of value, but really...

I think from a theoretical POV, you can have a balanced strategy. In a 7-way raised pot, you should probably bluff about 1:1000 times (or whatever). But it's so low as to be immaterial. I mean, I pure bluffed a 5-way raised pot on the river a couple of weeks ago, but the opportunities are very low.

Basically as the number of players (and number of combos of cards) increases, the ratio of bluffs:value-hands decreases. At some point it approaches zero.

very nice!
only one thing I wish to point out:
in Omaha, a gutshot doesn't actually mean 4 full outs, due to the common phenomenon of dupication (not to mention domination, the times we're not "nutting")

Captain R · 07-26-2012, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by str8 or better

very nice!
only one thing I wish to point out:
in Omaha, a gutshot doesn't actually mean 4 full outs, due to the common phenomenon of dupication (not to mention domination, the times we're not "nutting")

I completely agree. I thought about putting that in there, but decided the 6.5:1 odds should be enough to dissuade a flop caller with a gutshot, not to mention the duplication (that opponents don't take into account enough, IMO).

I've been thinking more about LO8 high hands actually. (Warning, discourse ahead)

I think most new LO8 players coming from a LHE background overvalue straights and straight draws. A straight is only slightly weaker than a flush or full house in LHE, to the point that you generally don't worry much when the board pairs or a 3rd flush card comes. Since the average winning hand at showdown is something like top pair, a straight is a monster.

But IMO, straights are far weaker than (nut) flushes in LO8. With a straight, not only do you have to worry about duplication, but players are generally going to have redraws. With a pure straight, you have no redraw. Nut flushes (assuming board isn't paired) are basically always going to be the sole high (straight flush obv., but whatever).

In this sense, sets, while weaker than straights, are worth jamming a lot more than a straight is (say in a big multiway pot on the flop) because not only are you often the current high, you have huge potential to improve to beat almost all other highs even if you're behind. And you aren't going to chop with another full house.

str8 or better · 07-26-2012, 03:28 AM

agree 100%.

it's a flushes game and a game of redraws.
therefore, in a typical loose and somewhat passive LO8 game, on the flop i'd generally want to have:

top set>nut flush draw>made nut straight=middle set>>>non nut straight.

of course, it depends on the # of players and how high the ranks on the board are.

RedHot · 07-26-2012, 05:46 AM

I think now that my whole premise on the flop was completely wrong. Its weird, I almost never slowplay in limit holdem so why am I doing it here when it is even more dangerous? On the flop I should see this as a medium strength but vulnerable made hand. I am starting to think that on the flop:

c/r > donk > check-call

I really think somebody will bet when I check on the flop, based on what I see at the tables. On the flop the balance isn't such a factor because other players have an incentive to call - some will call correctly and some will chase incorrectly.

On the turn it becomes more of an issue. If I have improved on a 5, there is a good chance that I have a house and that straight draws are drawing dead.

My feeling is that gutshots at the low end are worth very little, unless it also gives you low potential. The gutshot you want here is with QK.

J_V · 07-26-2012, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHot

Poker Stars, $2/$4 Limit Omaha H/L Cash, 10 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #13577732

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9

9

2

A

UTG+2 posts BB OOP, 2 folds, UTG+2 checks, MP1 calls, 3 folds, BTN raises, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls

Flop: (8.5 SB) J

9

5

(4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, BTN bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls

Turn: (6.3 BB) 5

(4 players)

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.

UTG+2, UTG+3 few hands
BTN 52/6/31 over 30 hands VPIP/PFR/AFQ%

This hand is all about flopping and turning very well, and working out the best way to get as many chips into the centre as possible from as many players as possible.

Flop: I am in the situation where I likely have the best hand. There are a good few draws possible.

I am first to act post flop, and the preflop raiser is last to act. If action is checked to the preflop raiser then (1) he can check back (although weaker players will tend to bet in this spot I think) (ii) if he bets,then a raise by myself will leave the field facing two cold, risking pushing them out of the pot. I din't have a read on the likelihood of them doing this with different types of hand.

Different options: (a) I can check to the preflop raiser, and just call when the action gets back to me, hoping the other players will call along. (b) I can check to the preflop raiser and then raise myself, hoping for the other players to call two bets cold. (c) I can donk, figuring that the preflop raiser then has the opportunity to raise and I can get two bets in from the field (or even try for 3 by raising).

Turn - I am in the same situation, other than that my made hand has become far less vulnerable. The same situation and options apply.

So, how can I build as big a pot as possible? How much should I aim to get into the pot? For example, on the turn, should I be looking to get one bet in from each player, or somehow aim for two?

You must check-raise the flop once you check, you need to protect your hand in a pot of this size. Whether or not to bet is solely a function of how often the flop gets check through and where the bet is likely to come from.

J_V · 07-26-2012, 09:25 AM

In 2004, I bought a book titled ways to profit from the coming real estate bust. I just skimmed it and didn't take any of the advice, but they had a lot of really cool tertiary ideas - I will see if I can find that book and get back to you.

I had a meeting with my accountant (he specializes in real estate accounting), he was telling me about reign investing in Detroit is really big now. He mentioned this site mymetrodetroit.com. There are quite a few of companies like this, that buy homes, fix them, rent them and manage them for you for good prices. I'm not sure if thats practical at all, but its kind've cool.

JV

RedHot · 07-26-2012, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J_V

In 2004, I bought a book titled ways to profit from the coming real estate bust. I just skimmed it and didn't take any of the advice, but they had a lot of really cool tertiary ideas - I will see if I can find that book and get back to you.

I had a meeting with my accountant (he specializes in real estate accounting), he was telling me about reign investing in Detroit is really big now. He mentioned this site mymetrodetroit.com. There are quite a few of companies like this, that buy homes, fix them, rent them and manage them for you for good prices. I'm not sure if thats practical at all, but its kind've cool.

JV

I think the expression is "cool story bro!"

Interesting but perhaps for another forum.......

RedHot · 07-26-2012, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J_V

You must check-raise the flop once you check, you need to protect your hand in a pot of this size. Whether or not to bet is solely a function of how often the flop gets check through and where the bet is likely to come from.

I agree. I want to look at the street as a whole, so its a choice between c/r and donk. I really think c/r is the move because almost always somebody would bet. I don't really think it matters where the bet comes from, it will just be a bigger pot if a donk comes from early position (this could happen if one of them has flopped well). If its a bigger pot this helps us with our strongish hand and draw to the near nuts, even if it gives other guys better odds to draw.

Captain R · 07-26-2012, 11:47 AM

What types of hands are people donking into the pfr raiser? Are they really betting stuff like top pair or open-enders? Realize there are no flush draws and only 2 open-enders.

**Leroy2DaBeroy** · 07-27-2012, 01:11 AM

This flop checking through is a disaster and I think it happens a fair bit more than everyone else seems to. I'm donking, but if I misclick and check, I think it's a must c/r.