I'm an experience NLHE player and I've recently started branching out into PLO & PLO8. There's a very good PLO/PLO8 mix game spread near me and I've been playing it every chance I get. The game has 5-5 blinds with a 2k max buy. The game often runs with a straddle, and in this case all players had agreed to a permanent straddle.

While it is not particularly relevant to this pot, Washington State has a 500$ betting cap. What that means is that the maximum bet/raise amount is 500$. So the game is pot limit until the pot reaches 500$, at which point it plays 5-500$ spread limit. Practically, if the pot hits 500$ you're playing 500$ limit poker from that point on.

This hand happened earlier this evening:

The game has just switched from PLO to PLO8 (game switches on the dealer change), this is I believe the second hand of PLO8. The game is full ring and very loose passive. 6-7 players limping to a flop is not unusual. Pre-flop raises are usually called in 3-5 spots.

Players:

SB: Hero, 885. I play very tight relative to most of the players in this game. I'm still learning so I'm not yet as aggressive as I should be. I've been playing for an hour and in that time I've played about three hands past the flop, none of them have gone to showdown.

UTG+2: Villain A, ~1.2k. I've played with him before, he seems to know what he's doing, but I think he over commits on his draws. He's definitely not afraid to make a big raise to try and isolate.

HJ: Villain B, Covers. I have not played with him before. Haven't really seen much from him so far. He's tighter and more aggressive pre-flop than most of the table, but not overwhelmingly so.

PREFLOP:
Straddle is on, both villains and 4 other players limp to me. I look at A2J8 in the small blind. Obviously I'm happy to see a suited A2 hand, but I don't like my position. A big raise here is almost certain to get called in at least one place, and probably several. I don't want to play a bloated pot out of position, so I elect to limp. Is this a mistake? It's also worth noting that both players to my left are extremely passive, if they raise (which I rate as extremely unlikely) they are certain to have what they think is a monster.

Big Blind folds, straddle checks his option.

7 players to the flop, $75 in the pot.

FLOP:
J56

Obviously I feel like this is a pretty good flop for me. Top pair + nut low draw + two back door flush draws. I lead out for full pot ($75). Villain A calls $75. Villain B raises to $225.

Hero? I have exactly $800 behind. I can raise to a maximum of $725 (eat a dick state of Washington), and if I do so I'm obviously never folding for the last $75.

I don't think so.

I count each back door flush draw as worth one out. Top pair in this game is nowhere near as good as it is in Texas hold 'em. And your nut low draw has no counterfeit protection. I'd call it a generally playable flop for you hand, but nothing to get excited about.

That's very aggressive.

I would just call. See what the turn brings. What cards do you think Villain A has for the call? What cards do you think Villain B has for the raise?

Buzz

OP, I don't like you.
1) your post is too long (lazy).
2) your game is too good (jealous).

I see where you're coming from... I'm actually torn between completing, potting and sweetening... I think limping is O.K.
I'd like to see you raising if effective stacks were deeper.

with tptk+nut low draw+two backdoor flush draws+emergency low backup+top set blocker i'd like to get my relatively shallow stack in as quickly as possible, meanwhile extracting value and caplitalizing on the dead money (getting it down to heads up should really improve your pot equity).

you're obviously not folding and flatting oop makes little sense to me. make a pot sized 3-bet and commit.

I now see that Buzz suggests just calling the raise. He mentions that tptk ain't much in this game. If we let the 3rd player in for cheap, that would possibly be true. Therefore, raising gives you a good shot at isolating the flop raiser and get it HU, in which case you could often scoop if the turn and river brick or get 3/4 the pot if the low comes instead of a 1/4.

Moreover, if the turn or river is an A or a 2, you have two pair+weak low. this hand stands a much better chance of getting a good piece of the pot if you get it HU now.

Lastly, there's currently close to 150$ in dead money, which is a lot relative to your starting stack. Seems like risk/reward calls for a flop shove.

Hero bet the pot ($75) on the flop. OK. But then one Villain calls and the next raises to $225. I think it's time to put on the brakes.

I think that's true.

You have a bold approach. I'll give you that much.

Buzz

I think Villain A has a low to mid strength hand with some drawing equity. This could be a straight draw + low draw, 1 pair + low draw, naked 2 pair, maybe a naked set. I think he would raise most hands with A2 and four wheel cards preflop, and I think he raises most of his sets here.

I think Villain B's range is similar but better: straight & low draw, two pair & low draw, sets + low draw. Again I think A2 w/ four wheel cards would have been raised pre.

My biggest concern is playing against both Villain A and Villain B simultaneously. The only single hands that really dominate me are A234, A255, A266, A256, A25J & A26J. I think most of those get popped by these villains pre-flop. However against two players I could be facing A2xx & J6xx and in a world of hurt.

I left out the best part: because the game is always switching back and forth between PLO & PLO8 about 2-3 times a night you get someone playing the wrong game in a huge pot. Nothing like calling your opponent on the river in a 2k pot and hearing "I have the low" followed by the dealer saying "This is High only."

This was my thinking. I think I have fold equity if I shove, and I think it's very likely I get down to heads up. If Villain A calls/reshoves Villain B has to have a true moster to call. Likewise Villain A has trouble calling me light here because Villain B is lurking behind.

The following simulations show the possible reward of getting it HU on the flop:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: J56

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
As2s8hJh	34.06%	65,370	132,484	26,680	103,148	214,693
Caller (JJ,66,55,J6,(J5,65): (A2,A3,23,A4,24,34),234,347,A2,A3: (J,4,7),A47):5%-25%	25.24%	45,906	141,877	23,519	37,238	160,730
Raiser (JJ,55,66,J6: (A2,A3,A4,23,24,34),J5: (A2,A3,23,34),65: (A2,A3,34),A34: (2,7,J),AA2,AA3,A23,A47J):5%-25%	40.71%	105,188	286,671	29,016	37,482	123,926

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

2,236,140 trials (Exhaustive)

board: J56

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
As2s8hJh	49.87%	439,790	811,812	101,375	806,773	481,665
Raiser (JJ,55,66,J6: (A2,A3,A4,23,24,34),J5: (A2,A3,23,34),65: (A2,A3,34),A34: (2,7,J),AA2,AA3,A23,A47J):5%-25%	50.13%	448,058	1,322,953	101,375	286,173	481,665

I didn't really mean for you to answer. I just thought asking yourself those questions was the way you should have been thinking. Since you have answered, I'll respond.

How likely are you to get another A2** hand to fold if you shove? Is it more likely that a A3**, 23**, or A4** hand will fold if you shove?

Would you rather have these A3**, 23**, or A4** hands continuing or folding? (I realize you'd rather have another A2** hand folding, but how realistic is that?)

If you play for a split pot with two opponents, when you win half, you effectively win half of what one opponent contributes (plus you get your own money back).
If you play for a split pot with one opponent, when you win half, you effectively win nothing (plus you get your own money back).

And you could be facing
A3xx & J6xx,
23xx & J6xx, and
A4xx & J6xx.

Which do you think is more likely, given this action, A2xx & J6xx or one of those three alternates?

If you are facing A2xx & J6xx, do you really want to make the pot any bigger?

Yes. Of course you do. But are you more likely to be pushing a hand that would lose to you out of the pot or a hand that would beat you?

There's about a 9% chance you'll end up with a back-door flush, and whether you have one or two opponents, you'll probably win about 8% and lose about 1% of that 9%. Thus from a back-door flush standpoint (or anything better than two pairs), you should much prefer two opponents to one.

And from a going for the low half of the pot perspective, you should much prefer two opponents to one.

You're most likely (~51% as simulated, Wilson, 100,000 runs) to end up with two pairs for high. There (or maybe if you don't improve and end up with just a pair of jacks with an ace kicker) is where you'd generally rather have only one opponent.

As I look at your hand and the action up to this point, I don't think you want to knock out anybody at all, at least at this point, after this flop. That might change on the next card, or on the river - and then I think you'd want to have some oomph left to possibly push out an opponent.

I'd just call the flop raise and save my strength as much as possible for the turn or river.

Yeah, you might. But I'd rather not at this point. (Maybe later, and then you'd want some firepower left when you pulled the trigger).

That's how I'd do it.

Buzz

I think both options (raise or call) are okay here.

If you're calling, donk good turns, LDO.

It's never really a mistake to not 3bet in PLO8, but potting is certainly possible. I'd probably do it, unless I were underrolled. This hand plays fairly well both multiway and shorthanded/heads up.

This is a massive fistpump shove, the reason being that you crush the ranges that stack off with you. You're miles ahead of A25x, A26x, and most other A2 against. Against non-A2 hands, you win low a large amount of the time, and you suck out for high quite often too.

You don't really want to see a turn as if it doesn't fill the low then you may have an awkward decision (e.g. turn queen, the guy bets again).

I'm with Buzz here, take the conservative route and call the raise. You want to see a turn, unlikely Villains are folding to your raise now.

My reasoning is:

1) I think about what I would repop with here if I was Villain B: A234, A34x,A247, A347, A255,A266, A2J5/6. I so want to get my money in with these (maybe not the A3 hands, but I probably would and hope for a deuce).

2) Hero doesn't have counterfeit protection here.

3) Hero is OOP.

You should lead flop if J or low spade comes, otherwise hold on tight and hope you don't get quartered.

What does Hero do if an A comes (seems unlikely since probably only one left but...)??

get it in with top two+emergency low and feel good about it...

Hero crushes this range, more reason to get it in now

If an ace comes, Hero has a fairly safe top 2 pair, and a low. Villain might get counterfeit on river also. A deuce would be worse, but that 2 pair may still be good.

All the more reason to ship now and remove opponent's positional advantage

Calling is OK (I think calling and raising both profitable) but I'd rather shut out all the hands that have combined weak high draws that together school us, and cement out our pot equity.

Limp pre. Bet smaller or check call flop. Just call the smallish flop raise. I think reraising flop is pretty bad given that villains are passive. But it is too small to fold. Also calling allows other player to come along, which we want.

Villains being passive is a good reason to raise.

We don't really want lots of people coming along , as then we may get 1/4 of a 3way pot if someone else outdraws us for high. It'd be great to get heads up with a worse A2 (or even a worse low draw)

I was implying that passive players would not raise a board like that without a hand that has ours in pretty bad shape. Therefore why would we want to get all our money in? Do you think there is any fold equity in a raise?

Best case scenario is we get another A2 to fold and get it in as an underdog against villain two. Don't think we ever get it in as a favorite here, and $800 is a lot to get in bad.

It's a bad situation which is why I don't like betting pot into that many people without a stronger hand.