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| Omaha/8 Discussions of Omaha High-Low Split (Eight or Better) Poker. |
02-02-2012, 12:36 AM
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#1
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: I've been all over. Now grad skool.
Posts: 9,547
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Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
General read:
The twice weekly 5/10 full kill game at Greektown is a mix of player types, but mostly loose opponents. There are typical loose-passive older individuals who resist putting in money without a lock but still want to see every hand through to the river; a couple of LAGgier players who show up with aggression at times if no one's shown any interest in betting or raising, but won't get out of line once someone stands up to them; and a couple of pretty solid players.
Specific reads:
BB is my strongest opponent in this game, a somewhat curmudgeonly guy who wins a lot. He plays a bit looser preflop than me, and perhaps a bit less aggressively post.
HJ-1 is somewhat aggressive when he thinks the pot's been orphaned, but not too much so, and pretty loose pre.
HJ is an older reg, very loose and not very aggressive, but occasionally will bet a big draw or a non-nut hand when earlier action indicates his hand is good or he can pick up the pot.
CO is also an older reg, also very loose, somewhat more aggressive than HJ, who occasionally will make some random lead bet out of nowhere that makes little sense except as a low-probability bluff. He's winning today and perhaps making a few more of these than usual, but also catching a lot of cards and usually has the goods.
BTN is unknown to me, a younger player who seems to be fairly tight and solid. He seems to know a lot about poker but earlier made a comment suggesting he might not be as experienced in live poker as his play would indicate.
Preflop
Hero is SB with A  6  4  Q
Fold until HJ-1, HJ, CO, Button limp; Hero completes; BB checks.
Flop (5.4 SB): Q  2  5
I have top pair, a gutshot to a 6-high straight (which would also make me a wheel, in great shape against any other A4), a backdoor NFD, and a 2nd NLD. What's my plan?
Last edited by AKQJ10; 02-02-2012 at 12:50 AM.
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02-02-2012, 01:10 AM
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#2
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: R.I.P. ItzPenzoo 12-09-11
Posts: 7,739
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
I hate to say it, but when we're talking about live, full ring (assuming fr, you don't mention either way), fl omaha8 this is the sort of hand that is just going to get you in trouble all day long. I would lead flop. Assuming we don't improve to wheel, the only turn card i'm betting is a diamond which doesn't pair the board. This is the sort of hand where if you make 2 pair (Qs and 6s or Qs and 4s) on the river you're going to get squeezed for 2 bets a lot of the time and won't win any part of either pot.
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02-02-2012, 02:19 PM
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#3
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old hand
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Israel/Las Vegas
Posts: 1,664
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
Decent flop. I would bet and gather information from the way the action unfolds as a result of my bet.
I did not read the spoiler, yet.
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02-02-2012, 03:53 PM
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#4
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veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Planet Zero
Posts: 2,801
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
i would bet the flop, and, that's based on whether i have a read on anyone or not. thing is, you *know* what you need to hit on the turn; what i don't want to happen is for this flop to get checked around and allow someone w/an A2x(for example) to get a free look and turn trips, or an overpair etc.. i want those hands out of the pot, i want to clean up some of my own outs and let's just see who shows up.
now, if the turn brings a high club and there's a bet made, you might need to fold because your six high straight draw might be no good and all you're looking at now is a second nut low draw and obv. your hand/draw would lose a lot of its appeal.
i, too, have not read the spoiler.
Last edited by Rush17; 02-02-2012 at 04:21 PM.
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02-03-2012, 09:13 AM
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#5
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: I've been all over. Now grad skool.
Posts: 9,547
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
Wow, awesome, i didn't expect such a clear consensus for betting.
Here's the continuation:
Flop (5.4 SB): Q  2  5 
Hero bets, BB call, HJ-1 fold, HJ, CO, and Button all call.
Turn (5.2 BB): A
Check/fold now right? Despite my description of CO, i can't see him betting here without a wheel. The only player whose bet i wouldn't read for a wheel 100% of the time is Button, the unknown who seems to have good card sense.
Last edited by AKQJ10; 02-03-2012 at 09:18 AM.
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02-03-2012, 09:49 AM
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#6
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: I've been all over. Now grad skool.
Posts: 9,547
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
And then the turn checked through:
Flop: Q  2  5
Turn: A
River (5.2 BB): 6
Hero checks, BB bets, HJ calls, CO and Button fold, Hero ????
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02-03-2012, 11:11 AM
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#7
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,840
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
On flop I would check and expect CO to bet often given description. I would then raise to hopefully knock out BB,MP,HJ, and increase my chance of winning high, 3/4ing, or even scooping. Your raise might even make those behind you fold bare A4's (probably not.)
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02-03-2012, 01:13 PM
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#8
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centurion
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 180
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
I think I might b/f that turn myself. 34xx is not a big part of anyones range so there is a decent chance you are good both ways on the turn, why let club draws get there for free against your top two.
A bet here would also get rid of most A3xx hands. Lucky for you nobody had A3 but if they did you would have to blame your turn passiveness for letting them suck out on you for low half.
ok some honesty here I would probably b/c the turn but secretly deep in my soul I would know that it was a leak and that b/f is better
Last edited by MUST.STOP.CALLING; 02-03-2012 at 01:15 PM.
Reason: to confess my sins
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02-03-2012, 03:05 PM
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#9
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old hand
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Israel/Las Vegas
Posts: 1,664
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
you turned top two+made 2nd nut low, but any 34 has you scooped.
that's definitely a concern, but that's (being a concern) also a reason why you should bet the turn. it's much harder for you, as well as for everyone else, to call a bet on this board, than to make the initial bet.
if you expect an honest response from your opponents when you check, you should probably expect the same when you bet.
bet/folding is the line to take. if you refrain from taking that line, you simply don't fully exploit the typical opposition's loose-passive-predictable nature.
the times you get flatted, you should have a clear value bet/fold on most river cards.
if you were going to check/call the turn, you should bet (and fold to a raise) yourself for 2 important reasons:
1) getting value from worse - many worse hands should be calling you down.
2) getting folds from worse - many hands with non trivial equity against your hand should be folding to your bet.
range considerations also dictate a bet. it's not that important against loose-passive-predictable players, but still: completing from the SB and betting the flop, your range isn't as heavily geared towards A*** hands as would be expected from a tight player limping UTG or raising preflop in position after a bunch of limpers.
in other words, your range should be a little wider than usual and have a larger portion of 34** hands (234*, 345*, 34$B$B - 2 broadway cards, 346:xxyy - double suited) you wouldn't play in most other situations.
your opponents' ranges are actually the ones that often get counterfeited by the turned A, which should give them many paying off 2nd best hands.
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02-03-2012, 03:23 PM
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#10
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: I've been all over. Now grad skool.
Posts: 9,547
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
Very good advice about b/f on the turn, but this made me smile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by str8 or better
your opponents' ranges are actually the ones that often get counterfeited by the turned A, which should give them many paying off 2nd best hands.
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So you play in games where people's ranges are weighted toward hands with aces?
(Just kidding.... even at 60%+ VP$IP.... sorta)
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02-03-2012, 03:37 PM
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#11
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old hand
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Israel/Las Vegas
Posts: 1,664
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ10
Very good advice about b/f on the turn, but this made me smile:
So you play in games where people's ranges are weighted toward hands with aces? 
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I don't know a player who prefers nines over aces.
however, I do know in advance who is going to bet a 986 board pairing turn card... 
random cards will have less aces. non randoms will have more. it's as simple as that.
as a side note, it's good to smile...
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02-11-2012, 11:27 AM
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#12
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grinder
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 484
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Re: Live 5/10: AsQ64 in SB on Q52 flop
Quote:
Originally Posted by str8 or better
you turned top two+made 2nd nut low, but any 34 has you scooped.
that's definitely a concern, but that's (being a concern) also a reason why you should bet the turn. it's much harder for you, as well as for everyone else, to call a bet on this board, than to make the initial bet.
if you expect an honest response from your opponents when you check, you should probably expect the same when you bet.
bet/folding is the line to take. if you refrain from taking that line, you simply don't fully exploit the typical opposition's loose-passive-predictable nature.
the times you get flatted, you should have a clear value bet/fold on most river cards.
if you were going to check/call the turn, you should bet (and fold to a raise) yourself for 2 important reasons:
1) getting value from worse - many worse hands should be calling you down.
2) getting folds from worse - many hands with non trivial equity against your hand should be folding to your bet.
range considerations also dictate a bet. it's not that important against loose-passive-predictable players, but still: completing from the SB and betting the flop, your range isn't as heavily geared towards A*** hands as would be expected from a tight player limping UTG or raising preflop in position after a bunch of limpers.
in other words, your range should be a little wider than usual and have a larger portion of 34** hands (234*, 345*, 34$B$B - 2 broadway cards, 346:xxyy - double suited) you wouldn't play in most other situations.
your opponents' ranges are actually the ones that often get counterfeited by the turned A, which should give them many paying off 2nd best hands.
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+1. Turn is def b/f. I came to this thread late and st8 wrote exactly what I was thinking ...
[note I haven't read past st8's post yet]
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