...but I SUCK at it and it's becoming an expensive hobby . I'm hoping to learn a thing or two in this thread!

Pre Flop: (pot: 1 BB) Hero has 2 9 Q A

Is this a strong starting hand? It seems like I'd want to get as many bets in as possible before the flop because I have a nut flush possibility, 3 high somewhat-connected cards (I wish the 9 was a T but I don't see it irreperably devaluing my hand - I also wouldn't complain if the 9 and Q were the same suit), and my A and 2, if I'm not mistaken, can make a nut low on more boards than any other 2 cards between A and 8.



Here's a separate question: Suppose the flop is 72x and I have A5xx with basically zero chance of winning the high. What is my thought process when deciding whether or not to chase my low? Hope that made sense.

Hey man,

O8 seems like a super fun game.

I think the way you're going to improve at the quickest rate is to just post some o8 hands, see what people say and learn from it.

The whole deciding to chase the low thought process is quite generic and dependent on a lot of things so hard to say without a specific example. (Actual hand/suits/villains etc)

Gl!

Thanks. Since I haven't played it much it's hard to find hands where I've been in specific spots, so I have to post a faked hand:

Merge - $0.50/$1 Hi/Lo (6 max) - Omaha Hi/Lo - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 43.13 BB (VPIP: 71.43, PFR: 53.57, 3Bet Preflop: 71.43, Hands: 28)
SB: 9.49 BB (VPIP: 48.65, PFR: 5.41, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 74)
BB: 3.75 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
Hero (UTG): 12.45 BB
MP: 59.26 BB (VPIP: 45.35, PFR: 16.28, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 86)
CO: 4.17 BB (VPIP: 42.67, PFR: 4.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 75)

SB posts SB 0.25 BB, BB posts BB 0.5 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 0.75 BB) Hero has A 5 2 7

fold, MP calls 0.5 BB, CO calls 0.5 BB, fold, SB calls 0.25 BB, BB checks

Flop: (2 BB, 4 players) 3 A T
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, CO checks

As played, was I correct to fold pre? Seems like a no-brainer that far out of position with basically no chance of winning the high.

Suppose I'd had that hand in the BB though, I get that flop and the SB checks. Using two cards from my hand I have A235 - a 4 gives me the nut low (with a small chance of having to chop it), but what do a 6, 7 or 8 give me? A2356, A2357 and A2358 are the second-nut low only losing if someone has a 2 and a 4 correct?

So what's my thought here, do I bet to try to build a pot? Am I looking to try to see a cheap turn?

It is almost never correct to fold ace 2 preflop

Yes.

The thing is, you're not likely to make the nut flush. You'll make the flush when the board is either of the following.
dddnn C(11,3)C(37,2)=109890 ways for this
ddddn C(11,4)=12210 ways for this
ddddd C(11,5)= 462 ways for this

109890+12210+462=122,562 ways you make the diamond flush.

But you don't make the flush if the board is
ddnnn C(11,2)C(37,3)= 427350 ways for this
dnnnn 11*C(37,4) = 726495 ways for this
nnnnn C(37,5)= 435897 ways for this

427350+726495+435897=1,589,742 ways you don't make the diamond flush.

122,562+1,589,742=1,712,304
C(48,5) = 1,712,304 (as a check)

You're almost 13 times as likely to not make a diamond flush as you are to make a diamond flush.

You should rather the 9 be a 3,4,5, or 6.

Yes, but not more than any three low ranks, seven and below. You like three low cards when you go for low (for counterfeit protection).

I would not say so.

It makes sense, but the answer is "it depends."

That's OK, but if we get a discussion going, it's much better if there's only one hand history per thread.

I don't want to click on a link.

Lacks high card strength and the 7 is a card you don't usually want, but otherwise a decent starting hand.

I don't know. I wouldn't fold it pre-flop.

I wouldn't say "basically no chance."

Correct.

I wouldn't.

Not necessarily. I think it depends on your opponents. I realize that's vague, but you just have to play poker.

Buzz

A29Q is a fold pre or a raise in late position... ur 9 is a dangler basically a useless card. why play a 3 card hand against other ppl with 4 cards.


in limit ur A257 i would call, in plo8 its a late postion limp or a fold.

Here's why.
ProPokerTools Rankings for Ad2dQh9s

# players	Description	Ranking
10H	10-handed iterative (default)	8.0
6H	6-handed iterative	9.0
3H	3-handed iterative	12.0
VR	vs. random hand	16.0

(In a six-handed game, it's probably the best hand at the table).

so u fold a29q with suited ace in early position?

In general, A29Qss is strong but not I would not call it a monster. Notice that you have no counterfeit protection (no additional Low card). And in this game, having counterfeit protection is MASSIVE. You can Flop Nut Low but end up counterfeited at any time on Turn and River if an Ace or a deuce pops up.
Nut flush is good ofc, but it all depends what Flop brings.
And Flop is everything A specific Flop can turn AA23ds into garbage

So I think what people meant was, if you can see the Flop cheaply, see it cheaply. If that's not likely, then fold.
It's easy to see Flops cheaply in FL games, not so easy in PL games

Pretty close, I think.

That's not what I said.

A29Qss as objectively ranked by ProPokerTools as a result of thousands and thousands of show down simulations, ranks better in a six handed game than 91% of possible hands. It only ranks worse than 8% of possible hands in a six handed game. You're right that it's not a monster... but it's probably the best hand dealt in any particular six handed deal. Yeah, it's not perfect because of that nine, but it's a playable starting hand. If you fold A29Qss before you see the flop, you're playing way too tightly!

Buzz

You serious? A257 is an easy open in PLO8 in almost any position. I'd be ok with limping it UTG, anything else I'm opening if there are no previous limpers. And even with limpers I might want to isolate someone and pot it.

A257 is top 13% when it comes to pf equity in O8 and if you're not willing to open 13% in PLO8 well then I ask you to join my table

The A29Q with a suited A2 is top 9% in a 6-handed game. Anyone suggestion a fold is seriously nuts, no offense.

Since no one mentioned it - I'd suggest you go to http://www.propokertools.com/simulations .

It's a free equity tool that let's you calculate how strong your hand is PF and what you're chances of scooping or winning a half are on all streets.

It all depends on you're playing style but playing less than 20% of hands 6-handed is usually way to low.

Makes sense Gramps, I totally agree I would not fold it.

There is one point I'd like to make tho, kind of semi random point:

Raw equity is one thing, playability is another.

Example: You have AA99 rainbow, pretty poopey hand right? Almost unplayable. You can open fold it Early Position. But it does have an ok raw equity.
If you're in a NL O8 game, open shoving it is +EV

This idea of counterfeiting is an interesting one to me.

Suppose I have KKA2 and a villain has QQA3. The flop is 567. I have the nut low right now, but if a 2 hits the board the villain just sucked out on me. Correct?

Is there an example of a situation where there is more than one turn card that could change the nut low for the flop?

^ With this flop, if the turn card is an ace, that would also change the nut low (to 23).
If it were only those two hands head up, it wouldn't really hurt you though.

Because AQ2 3 card is > QT24

If you flop a wheel, whether you subsequently get counterfeited or not, you'll still have a wheel. Otherwise, if either of the two cards you're using to make the nut low is counterfeited by the turn card, the nut low is changed.

Buzz

But at least you'd still chop with your overpair taking high, unless a 4 subsequently hits the river.

Why do we totally ignore playability?

Do all your hands go to showdown 100%? If so I think you have other leaks.

As usual DesertCat nailed it. In a lot of spots visibility is far more important than equity.

To make it clear I'm not arguing to fold this hand, I think it's a pretty strong hand. I just don't think raw equities are as important in 08, and our arguments should be more about playability.

Edit: Things like we'll get called by lots of A3/A4/A5 type hands and if the flop is high cards, well we have AQ. Obviously would be better hand with counterfeit protection but super playable anywhere.

Since I'm echoing you, agreed. Preflop equities would be relevant if we had 6bb stacks, for example.

On the flip side. I'd happily call a raise on the btn with K245ds at 1000bb depth.

I don't think anyone intentionally ignored playability. Playability seems worth discussing.

No. (Of course not).

But ProPokerTools showdown ranking values are an objective way to rank Omaha-8 starting hands.

A problem is the playability of Omaha-8 starting hands may depend on who is playing.

Let’s compare two hands that have about the same showdown rankings for a six handed table.

A2Q9 has a ProPokerTools ranking of 9% for six handed tables. That’s higher than 91% of other Omaha-8 hands for six handed play.

A2Q6 also has a ProPokerTools ranking of 9% for six handed tables. (That’s also higher than 91% of other Omaha-8 hands for six handed play).

Do you think one of these two hands is more playable than the other? To be clear, we're comparing
• A2Q9 with
• A2Q6.

They’re both ranked the same (in showdown value) by ProPokerTools. They both have an ace, a deuce, and a queen.

• In the first hand, the ace is suited.
• In the second hand, the six is suited but the ace is not.

• In the first hand, the low draw is a bare A2.
• In the second hand, the low draw is a A26.

• Clearly a suited ace is better than a suited six.
• Clearly A26 is better for low than bare A2.

Both hands are flawed. (That's why they’re 9% hands instead of 1% hands).

A2Q6 wins half more often, but
A2Q9 scoops more often.

And although 62 and 6A will win low some of the time, (1) neither can ever be the nuts for low, (2) some of the time either will lose to the nut low or a better low, and (3) being second best can be expensive. The same can be said of a suited six.

Which is the more playable?

Buzz

OK. Then make an argument about playability.

Do you think (A2)Q9 is a “pretty strong hand” because you think it’s playable? If so, why do you think it’s playable?

Buzz

OK stupid question:

How much happier are we really with A26 than a bare A2? What's an example of a board runoff where we're glad we have that 6 in our hand?

3 - 4- 5 - x- x