Lowered rois in terms of mtts post BF are more likely to be a result of smaller field sizes rather than anything else.

nut pedaling alone v these guys is not going to win you mtts on stars but i get wha ur saying.

I posted ealier ITT about countering them.

Originally Posted by billygstar
I guess u dont play on stars but if did i am sure u would change ur opinion. You have to obviously play different versus dfferent categories of players but if you have a table full of spewtards that wanna gamble it up preflop every time then ur gonna struggle with variance.

although i counteract this with 3 bettin less and keeping pots small pre flop and useing my post flop edge on these guys its often happens were u just gotta gamble with them preflop. If you get a stack it makes it way easier ofcourse.

A table with more weak players with a cpl of spewtards is ideal for my game strategy. and my ROI will be higher i am certain of it rather than a table full of clowns. ur gonna get a bad beat in most mtts if there are 8 gamblers at the table but playin smart aggro versus tight players u can often get a stack without gettin al in every other hand.


People ae going on aout that hand i posted. And it kinda looks like it contradicts this above but not really. So you want to avoid flips pre and on the flop but thats not to say you should avoid them by folding when you have enough equity that its a +ev call. Thats weak and is going to cost you.

Thats why i called in tha hand knowing i had enough equiry and that if i did win the hand my i am suddenly in a spot were the likey hood of me winning or top 3ing is greatly increased. I can know afford to take flips with some of the spewtards and not dent my stack.

Just out of interest leroy whats your roi playing these on merge or whereever u play since BF in mtts?

yeah well ppl keep diagreeing with this but the fact is the opportunity to win big monies way more often before BF makes this true.

My graphs that i posted highlighted this clearly.

However if the fields were the same size today but with the same balance of todays types of players then who knows. variance would be almost as high as holdem having to run like god and be allin so many times in the course of an mtt v a load of euro spewkunts

Billy, I don't know it offhand. I'll try to remember to look and post it tonight. In the teens somewhere would be my rough guess but over a relatively small sample.

I'm talking ROI in % terms, not total ROI. I guess I call total ROI "total net."

I'm just trying to find a way to make more every month, while minimizing the risk of not making anything for a month or two. Before BF, I could play mid-level MTTs regularly, despite not having the BR to do so. I enjoyed competing with the 10R's top players, like HumansPrey, DenYoungGun, JoeMamasNuts, PhilTMcNasty, AyersRule, LimpDitka, etc. It was a fun, challenging game with a big field, lots of good or very good players, some good mediocre players and some weak/donk players. I enjoyed the MTTs more and I seemed to do better in them. It seemed like the cream rose to the top a lot more in those MTTs than it does now. That's not really sour grapes, as I didn't do particularly well in the 22s, while I did very well in the 10R, and was starting to do well in the 33NL and had begun to play it more regularly. I don't even have much of a sample at mid-stakes post-BF, because I basically gave up on them, based on my BR and my feel for how different and "swingy" they had become.

I can't do much about the smaller fields at mid-stakes. I play as many micros as I can, since they have larger fields. I've repeatedly suggested to PS (in the appropriate threads here) that they move up the times of the 33NL, 11R, etc., so that they could get larger fields due to all the Euros and Russians who would then play them more. For whatever reason, they have left them in their original time slots. I've also suggested that they add more smaller tourneys in general, but haven't seen many/any added recently (although they added the 2R NL 3xturbos before).

I guess I'm not sure what to add to my micro MTT schedule:

- mid MTTS are very swingy and I don't have proper BR
- SNGs are good, but found those to be rather swingy as well
- have considered Cake, but that requires dividing small BR, and not sure about their deposit and/or payouts... there's basically no mail here and I can't wait for a month or two for my $
- could learn another game but gave up NLHE as boring, swingy, and not suited to my style, which is why I liked O8 so much, it was opposite... could try PLO, but that seems more boring and at least as swingy as O8... other non-HE games have even less volume than O8
- could learn cash, but isn't that swingy as well? i have basically no cash experience, and may have been more tempted if FR FLO8 hadn't vanished

I guess I should grind the 3.5-7 SNGs again and hope I run a little better?

Filtered for tourneys > 10 players and from 1/1/12 to 6/30/12, I'm as follows:

ITM 28.2%
ROI 16.6%

Average finish 16/46.

Only 131 tourneys though so... SampleSize

laughing at the notion these o8 tournies might b worse than pre-BF. laughable that you'd rather play against solid, folding hustlers than against ROW-blockheads. the fact that I am not watching the games and those who are, think different has nothing to do with the issue. although it means something.

I hear all of these things about how the games have changed since BF, and I'm jealous I wish I could move to canada and play with a much higher winrate than before.

the dynamics that changed on BF with U.S. exiting the market: sure all the US donks are gone, but that is not as big of a factor on the games as all of the U.S. hustlers being gone. The United States has easily the best O8 players in the world, Not up for discussion. You are fearing the rest-of-world-donks more than the winning players they've replaced if you'd prefer not to play them.

A tournament being relatively smaller doesnt make it worse, either. Lotta tourneys suck from having too top-heavy payout structures.

I don't know what its like with tourneys, but what happened with limit holdem was that after BF the US fish and US pros were gone. Then the best US players moved to Canada (and Mexico, Costa Rica, Europe etc) so we ended up without the biggest fish but with the best players. It doesn't sound like that has happened with these tourneys but if there is a lot of money to be made things may well go that way.

Hmm, so the fact that the best players in these games ROI's are lower post-BF than they were pre-BF is just randomness then, eh? Nice wishful thinking though...

Increased variance is not a bigger factor than the fact that your playing at a table full of Doink the Clown's than 'stone cold' Steve Austin's.

A big factor that happened is that the U.S. players before mostly played recreationally. your average third-world poker player is definitely sweating losing his $10 buy-in, that is like half a day's pay.

All talk of variance aside, it's pretty indisputable that the best players are winning less. All it takes is five minutes with sharkscope to figure that out.

The reason rois are lower (Im not sure if mine is or not) is because the fields are smaller with a higher % of competent players (the daily $109 being the prime example).
I totally accept poker evolves just as NL Holdem did but this is not because of "spewtards" unless you are wrongly defining spewtard.NL holdems winners are sitll lags and tags, with ofcourse the odd jamie gold.
spewers are always going to appear deceptively succesful now and again, and nits tags deceptively easier to beat.
All that has been mentioned is getting it all pre, no mention of the fact that spewers also chase miracles or that the predominant game is, infact pot limit.
spewtards, where i come from generally have rois of -10% to -30+% where as nits are generally around break even.
The example hand billy gave was a borderline-bad example imo, not a disaster but not great play -more a bit of frustration that was ok, certainly not optimal. Top tourney
players have been getting it in with this kind of hand for yonks with the right variables - this is not new.
good players may well need to adapt (i now much prefer the once despised NL08 at cash) as the game evolves but a spewer is still an atm in holdem and in 08 imo.
The game is harder because there are less players and more of them are competent or better.

That's true at the very highest levels. IIRC this discussion started regarding tournaments under $50. It's unlikely someone's making major life changes to play in tournaments of those stakes, and I'm not even sure there are enough really large big-bet O8 tourneys to justify moving to another country to play mostly tournaments (I could be wrong). Obv high stakes cash game grinders could play in the big tournaments though.

Thank you! Better opponents reduce edge and ROI, ldo. That's a far cry from blaming the smaller field sizes.

I'd rather play in a 4-player tournament with Larry, Curly, and Moe than in a 1000-player tournament with 900 pros, even though first place will obviously pay much more in the latter tournament. Hopefully this is obvious.

Listen, what I said was insensitive upon reflection. I didn't mean to put anybody down or offend. As a whole when your looking at the facts of the situation, us owns the most o8 knowledge, meant in the most general terms. look at who the best omaha8 players are, the whole scale of number categories show u.s. And the games were harder pre-bf; notice how theres no action anymore; it used to be >90% u.s. players playing.

i'm more into nlhe mtt's with these days with a gazillion players with nice pay jumps as you get to that final table!



unless this happens




and then then this








i had finished up everything i was in before midnight and had to 1 table this till 4am coz i was too tired to start anything esle lol..obv i wasn't luvin life tryin to fall asleep

about that hand i posted here before..jeztuck was right its not a great example of anything appart from i gambled with a cpl of spewtards for a stack knowing that i probably had good equity and getting a stack is going to increase my chances of a top 3 by a lot more than the cev. Maybe that doesnt make sense idk.
Just happened to be when i was involved in the thread so i posted it. It's not really like me to get hands like this allin PF but sometimes i would i guess.

Oh and bigger BF fields were better for plo8 as coz gettin through large fields requires a hell of a lot of luck if your gonna be allin a bunch of times and playing at a table withna higher portion of weak opponents allows you to build stacks easier without risking ur whole stack too with some small PF edge(which is necessary to take if u have an edge right in any mtt)

bring on the sunday storm this weekend

This could possibly be teh worst post ever

c yas