What aspiring O/8 players dream about when they dream...





My opponent had to be ready to puke at showdown, no?

Horrible play from MP3, it must be said. I would have raised the flop in your shoes tho

We are not afraid of a better flush draw or low draw? Is it a leak to give villain credit for a set with better spades here? I liked my draws, but not enough to get it in OTF.

yes, huge leak.

I called with the idea that I had position, but you seem to be advocating giving that up... I guess I didn't think my hand was that huge. What if I didn't have position? Lead with a PSB? And if I'm raised? Fist pump and get it in?

(This might be worthy of its own thread...)

When I run propokertools, the only GOOD range where I can find it being so much as a coin flip, still has me as slight dog...

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

6,056,520 trials (Exhaustive)

board: j q 6

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
kh 2h ts 3s	48.35%	2,685,516	2,775,282	38,874	1,034,304	12,960
jq**	51.65%	2,889,093	3,242,364	38,874	189,216	12,960

If I assume I'm up against a set, I'm a clear dog;

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

4,297,620 trials (Exhaustive)

board: j q 6

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
kh 2h ts 3s	40.56%	1,573,982	1,633,826	25,352	737,696	8,640
jj**, qq**	59.44%	2,387,283	2,638,442	25,352	126,144	8,640

Only when I assume villain has a somewhat random hand am I favorite.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

526,846 trials (Randomized)

board: j q 6

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
kh 2h ts 3s	53.28%	250,953	286,989	4,432	54,234	3,129
25%	46.72%	217,319	235,425	4,432	71,759	3,129

So what gives? I thought I only wanted to get the money in when *I'm* the favorite. And nothing about the flop and villain's PSB indicate that's the case.

Not saying your play was bad, calling flop is completely fine. Just that raising is fine too

Here is your leak..

Your equity to get money in only has to be more than the equity specified by the pot size. If the pot had zero in it you need to be a favourite, but the more in the pot, the less equity you need.

Also, fold equity is a very real part of your equity.

Finally, you also want to consider what will happen on later streets if you didn't get all in right away. Sometimes you would try to get all-in on the flop because many turn cards could leave you a difficult decision.

The ace on the turn was the worst for him.

When MP3 bets directly in front of Hero, those other three opponents have not folded yet. A raise by Hero seems too risky.

I like simply calling Villain's flop bet. Hero has improved with the flop, but is still drawing.

When four opponents have seen the flop, one of them is likely to have a better spade draw than Hero about two times out of five. Most of those spade draws are non-nut spade draws, so that a flop raise would have some scare value against some opponents who didn't have the nut spade draw. But against a tenacious or courageous opponent the flop raise might backfire.

I like Hero's turn raise. I think Hero played this hand well.

Thus the post really does belong where you originally put it, in the monthly miscellaneous thread, presumably as a "brag" post.

However, you were getting enough action on it so that (as per your suggestion) I pulled it into a new thread.

Buzz

Kittens,

If i'm not mistaken, and disregarding other considerations, hero needs to have better than break even pot equity to profitably initiate fresh money into the pot.

when hero makes a pot sized raise on the flop, most of that wager is fresh money.
when hero makes a bet (as opposed to a raise), all of that wager is fresh money.
when hero calls someone else's bet, none of that wager is fresh money. it's pot odds stuff per se.
that might be very true... at least we know WE'RE not folding - hero's stack is shortened for some reason...

Indeed, given we're 65bb deep, we can't raise/fold.
raising means raise/shoving... o.k then:

5 took the flop with SPR of 13. All in with THIS hand would be very undesirable, i'd think...

we shouldn't necessarily try to avoid tough decisions.
assuming we're better than our opponents, the tough decisions are where we apply our skill advantage.
being the better player, we should embrace decisions, and have as many of them as we can. decisions=money.

what DOES usually happen when we raise, is that pots tend to get much bigger, potentially, allowing us to win much more if we hit on a later street (implied odds).
...that's assuming there's enough money to play behind and that flat calling doesn't allow us to maximize (in this case, be all in) when we hit.

it doesn't work like that...
try to make a whole range, which will actually simulate reaity, improve your game and save a lot of space...
if you insist on seperating villian's range, at least show how you fare against a better flush draw:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

12,828,900 trials (Exhaustive)

board: QJ6

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KhTs3s2h	Spoiler: 31.87%	3,184,131	3,420,641	327,509	1,791,030	51,720
Qs-As:ss	Spoiler: 68.13%	7,843,412	9,080,750	327,509	1,135,446	51,720

in conclusion: not a great flop at all, I still like your preflop and flop calls, though...

You are mistaken (but a common misconception

As an extreme example to illustrate the point, imagine there's $1000 in the pot and you have $1 left, and you're not drawing dead. It's profitable to bet that $1. In fact, if you had 10% equity that bet will make you about $100 for your $1 investment. Even though that $1 is "fresh money" by your definition.

This is silly, if you and your opponent both put the same amount of money in, there's not one whit of difference between him going first and you going first. The pot odds are exactly the same in both cases.

This also seems silly. We should try to avoid tough decisions for us, and we should try to put the opponents to tough decisions. We apply our skill advantage by causing the opponent to have tough decisions, not ourselves!

not if villian checked the river and it's up to us to bet a 1$ or check and go to showdown.
if we check, no extra money is changing hands. if we bet the 1$ and villian calls, the extra 2$ in fresh money will be distributed according to equity. if we have 50%, we get our money back, if we have 40%, we get 80c back, costing ourselves 20c.

correct. but again, that's assuming all the money is going in anyway, which isn't necessarily the case.
if hero just calls the flop, all the money may very well NOT go in by the time there's showdown...

part of being a good player is preparing in advance so that decisions won't be (or at least seem) as tough as others' decisions.
yet, making early concessions (not necessarily the case here, just saying...) just to avoid late decisions is generally counterproductive.
it's actually in our best interest to usually play deepstacked 4 street game, full of decisions.

If there is $1000 in the pot and you only have $1 left in your stack, you are getting 1000 to 1 to call.

If you only have one opponent, however much is in the pot, you're getting 1 to 1 to initiate fresh money into the pot.

You should want to call a bet when your odds of winning are better than the pot odds you're getting.

You should want to initiate fresh money into the pot when your odds of winning are better than the fresh money odds you're getting for that bet or raise.

Get it?

The odds you are getting for calling a bet are not the same as the odds you're getting for initiating fresh money into the pot.

You often, because of the size of the pot, will have favorable odds to call but unfavorable odds to raise.

You may want to initiate fresh money into the pot (bet or raise) even if you don't have favorable odds to do so. That's because of "fold equity." That is, if you bet or raise, you may cause an opponent with a better hand to fold.

But no competent Omaha-8 opponent is going to fold to a dollar bet when there is $1000 already in the pot.

It's not silly at all! str8 or better has it right!

The pot odds are the same but pot odds and fresh money odds are two different things.

If Hero has no control over the amount going into the pot, that is if Villain is certain to bet when Hero doesn't, then there's not one whit of difference.

However, if Villain won't necessarily bet when Hero doesn't, then there is clearly a difference.

That makes good sense to me.

I think what str8 or better meant was in situations when both Hero and Villain will be faced with a tough decision, the one with the skill advantage has the edge.

Buzz

thanks Buzz,
I actually understand your post better than I understand my own...