Hi guys I'm trying to learn how to start winning at LO8 but having hard time figuring it out lol

Here's my first hand, any feedback much appreciated

Any mistakes anywhere?
Preflop 3bet or call?
Flop call or fold?

Poker Stars $0.02/$0.04 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 8 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BTN with A A 3 5
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 caps!, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls

Flop: (17.5 SB) Q 8 9 (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls

Turn: (10.25 BB) K (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

River: (10.25 BB) Q (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

I believe a strong player plays his opponents more than the cards in his hand. It's hard to do when you're playing for pennies.

Depends how your opponents will react to your three bet:
• (1) immediately (on the first betting round),
• (2) later this hand (on the second, third and fourth betting rounds), and
• (3) later in the session (for later deals).
It also depends on how you have played various other hands previously.

Depends on how much money is already in the pot and on what will work. And you omitted raise, another consideration on the second betting round.

Here's how your hand fares, as simulated, before this flop, against three unknown random hands.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Ad5dAh3c	43.65%	158,963	211,929	7,218	203,379	28,352
****	18.72%	64,685	122,384	10,490	29,182	12,424
****	18.85%	65,119	123,352	10,693	29,298	12,559
****	18.78%	64,878	123,095	10,618	28,936	12,510

And here's how your hand fares, as simulated, after this flop, against three unknown random hands.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: Q98

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Ad5dAh3c	21.20%	72,313	83,008	1,598	99,608	11,887
****	26.17%	124,052	163,623	15,926	11,315	4,935
****	26.30%	124,654	164,437	15,884	11,493	5,023
****	26.34%	124,814	164,563	15,928	11,642	4,962

As you can see, your equity dropped considerably after this flop. That's an indication the flop was not a favorable flop for your hand. But that doesn't necessarily mean you'll lose this hand. However you'll probably lose this hand if you don't do something to prevent losing.

My opinion is if you can think of something to do that has a good chance of turning your hand into a winner, then do it. But if you can't think of anything, then fold. Don't just call it down. Your equity against random unknown hands isn't high enough to call it down. (And your equity against hands that fit this flop better, for example K[heart],J[heart],T,Y or Q,Q,X,Y is even worse).

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: Q98

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Ad5dAh3c	14.25%	9,997	9,997	0	146,939	8,209
KhJhTc*	45.38%	177,648	350,181	20,699	0	0
QQ**	35.97%	210,596	211,108	4,846	4,965	1,834
****	4.40%	5,771	8,011	16,171	22,957	6,934

Nice starting hand. Nice position.

Why?
I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just asking why. You should have a reason for everything you do. And your reason should have more to do with how your action will affect your opponents than on how much you like your cards.

Why?

Why?

What cards do you think your opponents hold?

(That's how I play the game).

Buzz

I'm also new to this game but I would consider raising flop - we might be ahead and we can possibly knock out UTG+1 if he's going for a low. As played I would bet the turn. It's quite possible we have the best hand and it's possible we can improve our equity by getting a fold.

Hi Buzz

PREFLOP:
I 3bet for value, assuming that at that particular moment of the hand I must be ahead, when he capped I put him on a monster range of: AAxx, A23x, A24x and called to see the Flop and then reevaluate.

FLOP:
I only call for backdoor draws equity.

TURN:
I wanna see the River cheaply, so my plan is to call maybe 1 bet, fold to a 2bet, or just check behind purely for the flush draw

RIVER:
Check/folding this River, can't be good vs 12 cards right?

Preflop and flop are fine. I'd bet both turn and river for value once checked to.

I play it much differently(especially at these stakes).

I don't reraise pre. Your hand would be very strong if the trey was a deuce(and I'd be more inclined to press the betting more) but in games that likely have multiple players seeing the flop, I prefer to just call the first raise..That said, three betting it certainly isn't a mistake. I would three bet this in my game.

On the flop, I raise.

1) you have a positional advantage and you can use that on later streets when they "check to the raisor" and you decide to take that free card. In tough games, you're not getting that free card but when you're playing for pennies you will get lots of chances to see the river cheaply if you chose to do so.

2) Raising this flop should fold off back door A2's if they didn't catch a piece of the flop(it will certainly fold off another A3 holder who didn't catch a piece). These are things that should be going through your mind at this point..

On the turn, I take the free card 50% of the time, and I value bet my AA/draw the other 50% of the time. It depends what transpired on the flop, but, if one guy bets and a few of you merely call, who knows what hands are out there?(and how strong?)

I can't imagine not betting this river when checked to unless you've seen some of these guys check trips in this type of spot and board.

looks fine to me. A river bet would be super thin as villains will check/call stronger hands than ours anyway and we don't want to see a raise

Hi.

You probably are ahead. Your starting hand, (A5)A3, is a premium starting hand, a top 1% starting hand.

Do you see that you're telling us your raise is based on the strength of your starting hand rather than on the effect you think your raise will have on your opponents?

You can raise, or not, with any hand you decide to play. Whether you do raise or not should depend on the effect your raise will have on your opponents.
• If you want them all to fold, and if you think raising will induce them all to fold, then raise.
• If you want them all to continue and you think raising will induce them all to continue, then raise.
• If you think raising will keep them in the pot with inferior hands they're likely to fold to a bet later in the hand, then raise.

Get it? The raise should be based on how you want and expect your opponents to behave. How you expect them to behave should be based on their past performance.

Do you realize that you have a monster hand? Let me put it this way: If you play a four hour session in a brick and mortar casino, and if the game goes smoothly, you should expect to get dealt about a hundred hands... and (A5)A3 will probably be the best hand of the hundred.

But OK, some players who bet here will have a hand within the range you have specified. Other players might not. Some other players might simply be capping to exert dominance. I realize that sounds stupid, but that's the way it is... some players get their egos involved... maybe all of us do to some extent.

Anyhow, before the flop you have a top 1% hand, but that may change after the flop. Omaha-8 is a very flop dependent game.

You have that pair of aces: very strong. But opponents may catch up to you if you allow them the chance.

Understandable. Your hand/flop/turn is not top 1%. Your starting hand was top 1%, but your hand/flop/turn is not.

However, your opponents don't know that. Playing in a higher stakes game, your opponents might be afraid of losing. If so, you might be able to bet this turn and get them all to fold. But in a game for pennies, your opponents do not feel that same fear of losing.

(And betting the turn to get your opponents to fold won't work in a higher stakes game after this flop and turn if your opponents put you on a pair of aces for your first round action).

There are 13-2-2=9 missing diamonds, but two of them pair the board (8 and 9). An opponent might be hoping for the board to pair in order to make a full house. But (disregarding straight flush possibilities, which is reasonable) you have 7 clear "outs." And there are 44 missing cards. Let's not count the 8 and 9 one way or the other. In that case you like 7 possible river cards and dislike 35 possible river cards. The "hand" odds against you are thus 5 to 1 against. That's from 35/7=5/1. You could call either a single big bet or a double big bet here, because of the size of the pot. But you would need five opponents to call in order to justify your betting or raising yourself (fresh money odds). Anyhow you check. Fine.

I'd bet the river. If an opponent bet the river, I'd call. Hero has two pairs, aces over queens.

You only have two opponents. They have 8 cards between them. There are 43 missing cards, enough to make five groups of 8 cards each. Only two of them could have a queen. Thus the odds are (crudely) 3 to 2 that neither opponent has a queen. If neither opponent has a queen and neither opponent has 99XY, TTXY, or KKXY (doubtful from the action), then your aces over queens is good. I'd risk getting check/raised and bet Hero's two pairs, aces over queens.

Buzz

If there are 44 missing cards, it's either 37:7 or 35:9. I prefer 35:9 because I don't see you how you can discount diamonds that pair the board but then decide to bet a worse hand (2 pair i/o nut flush) on the river when the board pairs. Either way you do have odds to call like you said.

Also, maybe you can explain your fresh money odds concept more as I don't understand it at all. If you had the nuts, you'd bet here whether or not you got 5 callers. So why is this hand different? All you really need to justify a bet is worse hands to call or better hands to fold. I don't think I've ever heard of betting justified in terms of pot odds, only calling.

i feel like we can value bet the river

Preflop and flop look fine to me. You could probably value bet the turn, but it would be quite thin. I would definitely value bet the river.

+1

You’re right to question the way I did that. I was trying to come up with an easy way to value diamonds that pair the board. I was trying to keep it simple for a beginner.

Plain and simple, diamonds that pair the board are not worth as much to Hero as diamonds that don’t pair the board). Indeed, Hero might win with any river card. Following is a rough evaluation of the worth of all possible river cards:

On the river here, six “outs” win 100% of the time and are therefore worth full value:
• 2,
• 3,
• 4,
• 6, and
• 7.

But, as simulated against two random opposing hands,
• the 8 only wins 71.5% of the time.
It loses to a full house the other 28.5%.

When an out is good 71.5%, Hero is stuck calling the other 28.5%. A hand winning 100% of the time would be assured of 10.25 big bets. But a flush losing to a full house would lose 1 big bet.
(10.25*.715-1*.285)/10.25=0.687.
Therefore, I think the 8 is only worth 0.687 of 1 out.

Using similar reasoning, we can evaluate each possible river card

• 2	1 out,
• 3	1 out,
• 4	1 out,
• 6	1 out,
• 7	1 out,
• J	0.986 out…
• T	0.986 out,
• 8	0.687 out,
• 9	0.674 out,

That’s all the missing diamonds. But Hero might win with various other cards:

• A	~0.8 out
• A	~0.8 out
• K	~0.4 out
• K	~0.4 out
• Q	~0.4 out
• Q	~0.4 out
• 9	~0.4 out,
• 9	~0.4 out,
• 8	~0.4 out,
• 8	~0.4 out,
• Q	~0.2 out
• K	~0.2 out
• 3	~0.2 out
• 2	~0.1 out
• 2	~0.1 out
• 4	~0.1 out
• 4	~0.1 out
• 5	~0.1 out
• 5	~0.1 out
• 3	~0.08 out
• 6	~0.05 out
• 6	~0.05 out
• 7	~0.05 out
• 7	~0.05 out
• 4	0
• 2	0
• J	0
• J	0
• 5	0
• T	0
• T	0
• 6	negative
• 7	negative
• J	negative
• T	negative

I'd call any river card worth 0.4 outs or more against almost anybody. I might call a river card worth less, depending on the opponent involved.

I don’t know as I made it clear, but in first position, I’m betting river diamonds that pair the board. In last position, I’m calling a bet after a river diamond that pairs the board.
Yes.

Briefly, in order to bet, you either have to think there’s a good chance your opponents will all fold (that you have strong fold equity), or you want the amount of money matching your bet to be greater than the odds against you.

Yes.

Hero doesn’t have the nuts yet. After the turn, if we figure the odds against hero making a winner are 5 to 1 (By the way that’s incorrect), then Hero wants to win 5 fresh money bets for every 1 fresh money bet risked.

That seems right to me.

Well… I guess now you have heard of it. It’s not useful unless you’re in a situation such that if you bet or raise, there’s virtually no chance you can steal the pot with your bet or raise. But those situations do exist.

Buzz

What hands stronger than AA check the turn & river?

Thanks everyone, much appreciated!

I think I might be fearing the nuts too much in general, and being too passive postflop

Random question:
Are profits in LO8 mainly come from showdown or non-showdown winnings? or both?

Doesn't this discount the money already in the pot? In the hand, there's already 10BB in the pot. So if your hand wins 20% of the time, you can easily put in another BB (or two if raised). I'm not saying you should bet as a 20% favorite, but in this case I don't see how it's wrong from a pot odds perspective even if you only get 1 caller.


Basically any Q with a couple of wheels, especially without flush cards. Like QT2A. That seems reasonable for CO/UTG+1 preflop/flop/turn, but I can see where they should be betting those hands on the river. Although I agreed with monikrazy, this many limit experts can't be wrong.


Probably mostly from showdown, especially at the lower limits.

I remember watching that poker documentary Nosebleed, and Alex Luneau when playing Omaha Hi/Lo WSOP event said that his plan is to steal as many pots as he can.
And I was just wondering - how?
I always thought that people are having hard time folding anything in Limit games, especially hi/lo split limit games

I imagine in the penny games this is most probably true, and in higher games - you want to be cautious and logical about when you're bluffing, but sure there's many profitable spots where you can get opponents to fold post. Maybe a more simple good spot to practice for starters might be to practice following through with a river barrel on missed rivers -- say if you were betting a combo, or just the low draw in position previously against 1 or 2 opponents. If they've been passively calling, try barreling river also as they're likely on similar draws - watch if the board connects with other potential flushes/straights though as well that may be in their range...

Yes.

The situation has to be such that your bet or raise doesn't have a realistic chance of knocking out an opponent with a winning hand.

If so, the idea is whatever money is already in the pot already belongs to the one who is destined to win.

If you are the one destined to win the pot, so long as you don't fold, the money in the pot is already yours.

But you don't know, nor do your opponents, who is destined to win the pot.

So any fresh money you introduce into the pot is like a little side bet. If you figure you'll win 40% of the time, and if you have two or more opponents who will match your fresh money, you're getting favorable odds to bet or raise.
But if you figure you'll win 40% of the time, and if you have only one opponent who will match your fresh money, you have unfavorable odds to bet or raise.
The money that's already in the pot doesn't make any difference... that's yours already if you're destined to win the pot, and it belongs to your opponent if he's destined to win the pot.

You do include the money already in the pot to figure if you have favorable odds to call... but not to figure if you have favorable odds to bet or raise.

OK.

If you're destined to win this time, the money already in the pot is already yours, so long as you don't fold.

If you only figure to win 20% of the time, then you want at least four opponents matching your bet or raise.

As a 20% favorite, your break even point, in order to initiate fresh money into the pot, is at least four opponents, each of whom will match what you put into the pot.

Do you see it now?

Buzz

Yeah, there are very few (if any) players who would play a hand better than AA like that. Hence, you're leaving way too much money on the table not betting in this spot.

thank you ThankU

guys, I've got another random question about Nut flush draws on Low+Low+Low Flops

My hand:
A 9 Q K

Flop:
3 4 5

So in general pot odds to hit a flush are roughly 33% right?
But if I know for a fact that I'm gonna split with someone's Low even if I hit, how does this affect the pot odds?

I did some "calculations" but i don't know if they are correct:

In a HU pot, are pot odds 16.5% ?
In a 3-way pot, are pot odds 22% ?
In a 4-way pot, are pot odds 24.5% ?
In a 5-way pot, are pot odds 26.4% ?

Hand odds (not pot odds) to hit a flush are about 36%.

If you scoop, you win P minus your own investment.
If you win half the the pot, you win P/2 minus your own investment.

If you invest $6 in a pot, and the size of the pot is $30,
then when you scoop, you net $24.

If you invest $6 in a pot, and the size of the pot is $30,
then when you win half of the pot, you net $9.

On the basis of what you have written below, I don't think you understand what pot odds are.

Whole pot odds are P/I, where P is the size of the pot and I is your investment. (Don't count the money you have already invested as part of your investment... the money you have already invested is part of the pot.).

When are you figuring pot odds?
If you want pot odds on the river, they're however much the pot will be at the showdown, divided by your investment on the fourth betting round.
If you want pot odds on the turn, they're however much the pot will be at the end of the third betting round, divided by your investment on the third betting round.
If you want your implied pot odds on the turn, they're however much the pot will be at the showdown, divided by your investment on the third and fourth betting rounds.

Buzz

You might be right

I'd like to check if it's profitable to be chasing a Nut Flush Draw, in a situation when I can never scoop.
Versus 1 or 2 or 3 opponents.
On the Flop for a start.
And vs 1 opponent for a start.
Whether I should be figuring out immediate or implied pot odds - I don't know

HERO: A 9 Q K

VILLAIN: A 2 6 7

FLOP: 3 4 5

So if my chances to win HI are ~36% but I'm only ever gonna win 50% of the pot - what is the maximum price for me to pay to be able to continue profitably?
Is it no more than 16% of the current pot?

Disregarding rake, let's say it's heads-up and there are 4 small bets in the pot after the first betting round. If Hero can only win half of the pot and if Villain is not going to fold whatever Hero bets, then any money going into the pot on the second, third, and fourth betting rounds is a wash. (Do you understand "wash"?)

If Hero plans to check/call it will cost Hero 3 more small bets to see the next two cards. (It will also cost Villain 3 more small bets to see the next two cards, but that's immaterial).
• 36% of the time, Hero will make the flush and will win 2 small bets, half of what was in the pot after the first betting round.

• my math:
  +0.36*2=+0.72 small bets.

• 64% of the time, Hero will miss and will fold. Hero will lose 1.92 small bets when he loses.

• my math:
  -0.64*3=-1.92 small bets.

Hero's net figures to be about -1.20 small bets.

• my math:
  0.72 small bets-1.92 small bets = -1.20 small bets.

Since Hero figures to lose more than he will gain, he should not draw purely to a flush after a play where we presume Villain has flopped a wheel. (But the bugaboo is Villain may not have flopped a wheel).

Disregarding rake, let's say it's three way and there are 6 small bets in the pot after the first betting round. If neither opponent is going to fold, then when Hero wins, he wins half of the original pot plus half of whatever the third person puts in the pot.

If only one opponent bets... that is if one opponent bets aggressively while the other and Hero both play passively, it will again cost Hero 3 more small bets to see the next two cards. (It will also cost both Villains 3 more small bets to see the next two cards, and that's not immaterial).
• 36% of the time, Hero will make the flush and will win 3 small bets plus half of what one opponent bets on the second, third, and fourth betting rounds.

half of what was in the pot after the first betting round.

• my math:
  +0.36*3+0.36*5+0.36*5=+4.68 small bets.

• 64% of the time, Hero will miss and will fold. Hero's loss subtotal figures to be about 1.92 small bets (when he loses).

• my math:
  -0.64*3=-1.92 small bets.

Hero's net figures to be about +2.76 small bets.

• my math:
  4.68 small bets-1.92 small bets = +2.76 small bets.

Of course there are all sorts of possibilities. One opponent can fold at any time, or there could be a betting war between the two opponents.

But so long as you are guaranteed at least two opponents who will both see the showdown, or two opponents, one of whom will see the showdown and the other of whom will fold on the last betting round, you can draw for the flush. With only one opponent after the flop who will go to showdown, you should not draw for the flush.
-------
Little short cut: when you win 36% against one, double that against two, to get 72%. Meanwhile, your loss, regardless of the number of opponents, is 64%. You can see that 72% is greater than 64% (while 36% is less than 64%).
-------
If, instead of 4 small bets in the pot after the first betting round, there were 8 small bets in the pot after the first betting round, then there still wouldn't be enough in the pot to justify continuing heads-up with only a flush draw.
+0.36*4-0.64*3=
+1.44-1.92 =-0.48 (the sign on the net is still negative).

But if there were 12 small bets in the pot after the first betting round, then
+0.36*6-0.64*3=
+2.16-1.92=+0.24

Buzz