Hey, I am looking for some advice regarding preflop decisions with low hands that do not contain an Ace or a lot of high cards.

You are faced with:

- a limper(s)
- a raise
- a raise/call in front of us
- a raise and a 3bet

in late position and you have a hand like:


2 3 4 7

2 4 5 8

2 3 4 K

2 3 K Q

2 3 4 T

4 5 6 7

5 6 7 9




again, situation is:

You're shorthanded, in either

a) CO
b) BU
c) SB

and before you there is either an open raise, or an openraise and a coldcall, or one or more limpers.

When there is an openraise and a 3b I tend to the fold, correct? If a fish (50vpip + ca) openlimps before me, I limp behind. If I am sure that hands like A2xx or A3XX are limped before me , I fold from time to time.

However, I would like to know under what circumstances you overcall, or fold or 3bet.


- What tendencies do your opponents need to have that influence your decision with those hands

- What decides your action when you are looking at your hand? Is it suits, connectedness, danglers?

- Are you afraid of domination?

- Do your actions change depending on the limit? (rake or higher skilled opponents ?)

Input would be awesome

hand	limper	raise	raise/call	raise/3bet
2 3 4 7	call	depends	call/depends	fold/depends
2 4 5 8	call	depends	call/depends	fold/depends
2 3 4 K	call	depends	call/depends	fold/depends
2 3 K Q	call	depends	call/depends	fold/depends
2 3 4 T	call	depends	call/depends	fold/depends
4 5 6 7	fold	fold	fold	fold
5 6 7 9	fold	fold	fold	fold

Seems right.

I don't see a question. You seem to be telling us how you play. Meh. I vaguely wonder if "overcall" means the same thing as "call." (I guess it must).

Aggressiveness and tenacity mostly, I guess. Hard to be more specific.

Lots of stuff. Very complex. The various components of the hand itself. The individual opponents. Various interactions. Table images. History. More.

No. Doesn't cross my mind. I'm wary of various possibilities, depending.

Probably. Hard to say how.

Buzz

thanks Buzz.


by "a raise/call in front of us" I meant somebody openraised, and somebody called his raise and the action is to us.


I was hoping to get some info on the "depends" collum..

I am not looking for the ultimate guidebook, more like a thing or two that comes to your mind if you are deciding wether to play a hand like 2346 against a raise or 2368ds in the SB against a button openraise

You're welcome.

In general, after an open raise by one player and a cold call of two bets by another, I'd probably call with any of the first five hands and fold the last two, but I might re-raise, or more likely fold with any of them. It would depend more on how I felt about the raiser and the two-bet-cold-caller than on the exact cards, although I like some of those first five hands better than others.

2 3 4 K is my most favorite of the hands shown and
2 4 5 8 is my least favorite, but those first five hands are all in my wheelhouse (playing range). None of them are great starting hands for full table Omaha-8. None of them are recommended for play by beginners.

Aces are really super powerful cards in Omaha-8. If you don't have one, that increases the chances your opponent does.

Buzz

I can't imagine 2458 being a good hand with 2 players already in. You are probably going to be 4-5 handed and need a miracle A3 flop to make the nut low. I don't want to play a marginal 2-way hand in a 5-way pot. I fold this hand unless I'm opening from the button, limping from the small blind, or defending from the big blind. I need to be double suited to open this hand from the cutoff.

4567 is never playable unless it's blind vs. blind, defending, or you're stealing on the button and it's got a suit. I don't even steal with 5679. That's essentially middle trash.

I don't really play any hands without an ace to a 3-bet.

I'd usually limp behind with 234x. I might raise KQ32 if I think I can get heads up and the limper is probably limping garbage. If not I'd limp behind. Against a raise I'd fold 234x and KQ32 if I wasn't in the BB unless I know they are pretty loose. Their opening range will be the favorite on the high end and a likely favorite on the low end as well. Unless you catch an ace where one is most likely in their hand or a miracle flop you're not going to know where you stand.

I'm not advocating that you or anyone should play or not play this hand (except that in my humble opinion beginners should avoid it).

The hand specified by OP was 8(54)2. In other words, the four and five are of the same suit. For me suitedness is very important. (You have not specified suitedness).

8(54)2 is, for me, a borderline hand, and, rightly or wrongly, slightly above the border.
8542, the rainbow version, is below the border for me.
To perhaps put it in better perspective, I'll include the rainbow version in my chart:

hand	limper	raise	raise/call	raise/3bet
2 3 4 7	call	depends	call/depends	fold/depends
2 4 5 8	call	depends	call/depends	fold/depends
2 4 5 8	fold	fold	fold	fold
2 3 4 K	call	depends	call/depends	fold/depends
2 3 K Q	call	depends	call/depends	fold/depends
2 3 4 T	call	depends	call/depends	fold/depends
4 5 6 7	fold	fold	fold	fold
5 6 7 9	fold	fold	fold	fold

I don't really think 8(54)2 is a strong starting hand. But for me it's generally borderline playable and I can see favorable flops.

I don't need to see the miracle A3* flop to continue after the flop. If the flop simply has an ace plus at least one more low card, I'd consider it favorable, and if the other low card is an eight, even better.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: A86

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
2c4h5h8d	37.00%	43,285	82,828	20,578	300,363	103,741
1%-15%	18.51%	5,272	157,668	16,046	38,904	36,593
16%-30%	16.26%	4,154	116,907	20,467	51,346	34,923
31%-50%	15.44%	4,774	95,553	17,202	56,736	50,695
****	12.79%	2,401	103,919	14,312	29,303	27,624

The flop doesn't have to be that good for 2c4h5h8d to be ahead.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: A8K

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
2c4h5h8d	27.29%	39,188	58,355	7,317	216,829	75,223
1%-15%	26.43%	65,990	203,907	20,476	26,717	24,839
16%-30%	17.84%	36,218	119,927	19,729	36,185	25,902
31%-50%	15.00%	28,817	88,494	12,520	40,849	36,051
****	13.44%	30,433	93,546	12,695	21,367	19,292

As you can see from the simulations, 8(54)2 is the favorite, in a five handed game, after a favorable flop that includes an ace. And the flop doesn't need to be A3*. There are some other flops, including some without an ace, that would be favorable as well.

I'm only responding because you wrote that you "can't imagine 2458 being a good hand with 2 players already in"

I'm not trying to talk you into playing the hand, not at all. And I don't want to get involved in a complex discussion here about nuances between baby-suited hands and rainbow hands.

But there is actually some logic involved in the decision to play the baby-suited hand specified by OP.

Buzz