#1

Game was generally loose with a lot of limping , I`m running 51/24 like a boss
I have won one big pot where it has been limped to me in BB 6way, I raised A832 with nut suit, flopped nut low and got there by the river for high.

Generally on high level you can rarely see a lot of limping in 6max game so I`m a bit unsure how to play such hands in early position 8max, but here with shortstacks behind I thought openraising is fine. Not sure if limping is viable although its quite strong hand for high.


Villain is 46/24 with 21% 3bet, 3betting lots from late pos-s in 55 hands.
He already 3bet SB once and totally 3bet 4/11 from CO-SB - quite a lot!
Cbet - 57% [4/7], 2nd barrel - 1/1 in 3bet pot.




PokerStars - $24.55+$2.45|300/600 Hi/Lo - Omaha Hi/Lo - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 6,205
UTG+1: 2,913
MP: 9,591
Hero (MP+1): 16,962
CO: 7,400
BTN: 4,998
SB: 3,485 (VPIP: 46.30, PFR: 24.07, 3Bet Preflop: 20.83, Hands: 54)
BB: 3,440

SB posts SB 150, BB posts BB 300

Pre Flop: (pot: 450) Hero has K 9 6 K

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 600, fold, fold, SB raises to 900, fold, Hero calls 300

Flop: (2,100, 2 players) 7 Q 4
SB bets 300, Hero calls 300

Turn: (2,700, 2 players) T
SB bets 600, Hero raises to 1,200


So I`m a bit confused, do you think I should 4b/c pre and then just get it in on vast majority flops given his stack and how wide he 3bets?
I thought calling 3bet fine, I still can give up on some A-high boards.
As played we have spr-1 and an ok flop for me so what do you prefer - to call down, raise/gii otf, call reevaluate ott?

In game I`ve forgotten to factor width of his 3bet range, so opted to see turn card and then decide and as played raised turn when picked a GS on a pretty safe turn card for me.




#2

A bit later, dynamics is still the same.

This hand is much weaker and probably I should have folded pre, but still with good suit and 32 I opted to raise

This villain is more passive, fishy and 3bets 2nd time in 57 hands running 47/14, cbetting 60% otf.
I saw him just calling on blinds (as a shortstack) with 7432, J532 and hand like TT77 thus I guess he 3bets strong merged value hands -- mainly AA, A$w$L hands.



PokerStars - $24.55+$2.45|400/800 Hi/Lo - Omaha Hi/Lo - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 8,605
UTG+1: 1,856
MP: 7,641
Hero (MP+1): 14,581
CO: 11,991
BTN: 3,648
SB: 4,472
BB: 7,200 (VPIP: 47.37, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 57)

SB posts SB 200, BB posts BB 400

Pre Flop: (pot: 600) Hero has Q 3 2 8

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 800, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 1,200, Hero calls 400

Flop: (2,600, 2 players) 3 9 K
BB bets 400, Hero calls 400

Turn: (3,400, 2 players) 2
BB bets 800, Hero raises to 1,600


Flop - std?
Guess people would say fold, but I thought its an ok call with a pair assuming he would cbet his whole range trying to win sizable 3bet pot and given many of his A2xx bricked, I have equity vs AA.

Ott he has 5.6k left, thoughts on raising turn?
I raised for thin value which I won`t be able to get otr on many runouts when he will shutdown and to capture initiative too. I planned to r/c however I don`t expect to get 3bet often at all assuming he could/would mostly just call a lot KK hands preflop.

I fold both of those hands pre. I don't hate the raise on the turn in hand#2. But these are very thin all the way around.

I'm definitely folding hand #2 preflop. I think I like hand #1 alot less than you do as well, but I'm probably still gonna play it double suited to the Kings. And I don't think either turn raise makes much sense. You're more likely than not to be ahead in both cases, but when you're behind you're way behind, and when you're ahead you're not that far ahead because villain probably at least has a low draw.

i raise with hand #1 and plan to call down. turn is a spew.

hand #2 is a fold. and the fsdr is not as spewy as hand #1, but still spewy. you can still get away from a lot of rivers if the board pairs, and he still might donk a lo completing river anyway. i just call down and bet when checked to.

user12345 - I think overall you're playing too aggressively, especially early, on the first and second betting rounds.

That's just my opinion. If you're doing fine, then continue playing as you are. But if you're losing more than you're winning, then consider toning it down a notch or two, especially on the first betting round.

For example on hand #1, I'd want to fold after this flop. But by raising before the flop, you've managed to make the pot large enough that it's hard to advise you not to call SB's bet. And then I think your turn raise is bonkers. (Sorry).

And then it's more of the same on hand #2.

What does "GS" mean? (gut straight draw)?

Just my opinion.
Buzz

Well, if you are going to play these hands, you should definitely be raising them deep in a tournament when it folds to you. Open-limping any hand from MP or later seems like a pretty terrible ICM play.

But I don't understand what raising the turn accomplishes in either case.

FWIW, I ran the equities on the turn in both hands, and they are very similar. You are actually an equity dog both times again a fairly wide preflop hand range, without even limiting the ranges considering the post-flop action. In both cases, you are a slight favorite to win the high, but the times you end up chopping with a low make you a dog overall.

Both hands are also equity dogs preflop against most ranges. Hand #2 is a really far behind (relative to most preflop O8 equities). Hand #1 is only a slight dog, and I do think it is just barely raisable given it's easier playability, your likely good position and at least a little fold equity.

Can you back that up with ICM numbers?

I don't understand either. I think he's trying to get his opponent to fold.

Seems right.

Seems right.

Seems right.

Raisable when?... which betting round or rounds?

Buzz

Yes, I agree, it might be truth I overplay hands preflop.
Using Omaha(game) logic its probably correct when you`re saying we don`t want to found ourselves in a bloated pot where there is a low draw and we have high only hand and now we have to call(down) getting decent price.
My problem is in tournament raising has its merits too.

Do you agree we can figure what % of hands players behind should defend to prevent us from winning chips with raising atc preflop (in this specific spot)?
And given small equities deviation in O8 (compared to NL) and stack sizes of opponents behind me in hand #1 for example I think its +ev to openraise preflop at least hand #1.
I`ll try to back this statements with numbers (not sure when though with SCOOP incoming) and I conceed I may be wrong but that`s how I feel.

Talking about turn spot in hand #1 I think have really good equity vs wide 20% range to value raise on that runout and I have position.
I also think although it might appear -ev to raise it still might be better than just calling lets say. (which I also would try to back with numbers)

I agree hand #2 is bigger spew.

Yes, GS is a gutshot Buzz.


Thanks Nick. I can conceed its true and raising was wrong.
I`ll try to check it myself. And although I`ve already done some amount of similar O8 sims I still feel occasionally there`s value to be extracted with the raise.


Its too early for ICM or at least at this stage its very hard to estimate the difference between chip ev and prizepool ev.

But we can call it 'tournament consideration' and go from here.
And I although we don`t have the short stack and don`t risk tournament life I also thinking raising preflop is more optimal in tournament considering there`s a good chance to pick up blinds uncontested.
However I agree hand selection is important.
At the end our decision to raise or to limp is a function of all this variables and they`re certainly different in CGs and tournaments.


Thanks for feedback in all my thread people.

I don't think it's possible to figure what % of hands players behind should defend to prevent us from winning chips with raising.

Buzz

In other words we can assign each of players behind a range of hands they would defend vs our raise in accordance with their styles,stack sizes etc and figure preflop ev of the raise.

Interesting idea. But I don't see any way to make it work.

I'll agree that some opponents are more likely to defend than others, and I'll agree that some opponents are more tenacious than others... but for any individual, I think defending or not is somewhat variable, depending somewhat on mood. Real people have emotions... they don't play like robots.

I don't see how to do that for Omaha-8.

1. What to do depends partially on the cards one is dealt.
2. How someone will react to a raise depends on various other factors, perhaps including stack size, position, mood, general assessment, etc.
3. Even if dealt identical cards with identical stack size and identical position, everyone doesn't think the same or play the same as everyone else.
4. Even if dealt identical cards with identical stack size and identical position, a particular individual may play differently one time than another.

Pretty hard to know what cards all your opponents are holding and how they feel about them before they have taken any action.

Bottom line, at least for me, is calculating the preflop ev of a raise is so overwhelming as to be impossible. I don't see how it could be done.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

I mean the same way it works in holdem -- push/fold charts, equilibrium shoving range etc.
I`m trying to say there`re cases in tournaments when we don`t need much of a hand if players behind with shortstacks play tight and even if one of them wake up with a good hand it still might not make openraise preflop bad.

Are you able to figure what % of hands players behind should defend to prevent you from winning chips with raising atc preflop?

I don't know how to do that.
(Trivially,
1. if the blinds are 1.5 units,
2. your raise costs you 2 units, and you plan to fold to a defense, then you need your steal attempt to be successful 4/7 or 57% of the time to break even.
But that's not the question you're asking).

And however you do that (figure for foldem what % of hands players behind should defend to prevent you from winning chips with raising atc preflop), Omaha-8 is more complicated because
#1. some pots are split between high and low, and
#2. you use any two of four hand held cards to make your best high hand and any two of four hand held cards to make your best low hand.

I think there are times when you can steal the blinds. And I think there are times/situations when you can chase away your opponents (get them to fold) and steal the pot.

I don't think either blind stealing (before the flop) or times/situations where you can steal the pot (after the flop) are as common in Omaha-8 as in Texas hold 'em.

And just as a general observation, trying to be helpful to you rather than argue with you, in my humble opinion, you try too often to steal the blinds (before the flop) or steal the pot (after the flop).

Just sayin'. (And I'm not always right).

Buzz

np Buzz.
Hopefully I`ll come back with some numbers next week to discuss it more thoroughly.

Hand 1 - Just call down and pray.

Hand 2-

Fold pf
fold flop
fold turn