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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
The second post was a mere illustration and probably a poor example. I was hoping to get some discussion going with regard to the first post.
A noble idea. OK... I'll help.
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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
one, in the pursuit of playing optimally, should steer oneself to avoid situations in which one is putting chips in the pot hoping to get half the pot when low is possible.
Seems a good adage as a general guideline, however never intended to be followed without exception.
The key to success in any split pot game is to scoop as much as possible.
Playing Omaha-8, my experience is Hero scoops more often when he has a one-way hand than when he has a two-way hand. This is because Hero flops a playable one-way hand more often than he flops a playable two-way hand. In my experience, Hero converts his one-way hand to a two-way hand by managing to knock out the opponent who would have won the opposite way.
But for this to happen, Hero has to be facing a line-up that includes at least one opponent who will yield to pressure from Hero and fold a one-way hand that would have won. Nobody folds the one-way nuts on the river in a fixed-limit game. But if Villain will fold a non-nut one-way hand under pressure from Hero, then Hero can successfully turn a one-way winner into a scooper. Probably works better if Hero has a table image of credibility.
Hero needs (1) cards than make a one way winner, plus (2) an opponent who will fold, plus (3) a table of other opponents who are neither too loose nor too tight, so that Hero can get heads-up with his opponent.
Hero bides his time, waiting for the right opportunity. By “Hero bides his time,” I don’t mean Hero plays like a nit. In case Hero senses that he
is perceived as a nit, then perhaps he can get away with some steals until he gets caught. To accomplish this feat, Hero needs opponents who will bite.
Scooping is more possible in some games than others... mainly depending on one's opponents.
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However, there arises occasions in which one holds a high hand such as 2 pair or trips
I presume you mean Hero
flops 2 pair or trips with no chance at low.
In the case of trips, Hero probably is more or less stuck in the hand and should probably usually play it fast, hoping to be able to knock out opponents with poor lows who are drawing for a flush or straight. To make this work, Hero’s opponents have to be capable of folding to pressure from Hero. Probably works better when Hero has a table image of credibility. (And I tend to avoid starting hands with low pairs).
In the case of two flopped pairs, there are top two, top and bottom two, and bottom two. You don’t want bottom two. You generally want your two pair to include aces or kings. And then you just have to “play poker.”
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The game, being fixed limit, often creates conditions in which the pot is quite large compared with the size of bets.
Usually when the pot is large you should bite the bullet and call with any chance you’ll get even part of the pot.
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The question is, what type of spots are you looking to hold on to your high hand, or even bet your hand, when low is possible?
The idea (or at least
my idea) is to bet when you have a decent chance of converting your hand into a scooper. For this to happen, your opponent must be capable of folding to your bet... and you really want to be facing an opponent who is frightened when you bet... who believes he’ll get scooped.
I guess it boils down to getting into a game with opponents you can beat.
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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
I will begin with a fairly common example:
One is holding AAxx and the pot was capped 3 ways preflop excluding the blinds. So there is 13.5 small bets in the pot on the flop. One is last to act.
The flop comes down A28 with a flush draw that you do not have and the flop ace does not form part of that flush draw.
Villain 1 bets
Villain 2 calls
Now there's 15.5 small bets and it's on you.
Of course you do not fold. Depending, sometimes you call and sometimes (probably usually, depending on your opponents) you apply pressure and raise. Of course when you raise, you’re alerting your strong opponents that you may be holding AAXY, exactly what you are holding. But your weak opponents may not have a clue.
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Conventional wisdom holds that we should avoid getting freerolled,
Yes. That makes good sense.
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and given the preflop action and our hand and the board is blocking a lot of a2 combos, it seems likely that one of the opponents holds 2 cards inside the A-2-8 for a low, that combo is probably a wheel draw. So it would lead us to believe that folding three aces on the flop is the right play.
Whoa! You’re drawing for aces full!
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However it seems as though more benefit shall come from staying in the hand IF our hand holds up for high than by folding. One reason is that the three aces will stay the best hand or improve to a nut full house more often than not, even though there are of course many cards which can come to scare us. Another reason is that the large size of the pot appears make up for those times we lose.
And so our conventional wisdom is challenged.
Agreed.
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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
Perhaps it's better to talk about actions on various low textures with various hand strengths?
Seems to me there needs to be more caution on an a-4-5 with a high only hand, more so with a flush draw one doesn't have, than on an a-2-8 rainbow. How is that caution exercised in action?
I do feel more natural caution when the flop is A-4-5 and I flop trip aces than when the flop is A-2-8 and I flop trip aces. The way that caution is manifested depends on the situation, my opponents, how they're acting, whether I believe them or not, and whether I think they'll believe me or not.
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If you get raised when holding two pair/set on a low flop that has a straight possible, it's fairly likely the raiser flopped it.
It's
possible the raiser has the straight. I think it's generally more plausible the raiser has the nut low with a draw for high. And of course then you're more or less getting free rolled.
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Question is, do you hang in there and hope to improve, call it down to get your money back or lose it all?
Good question. Deserves a better answer than I have.
The scenario you're proposing is Hero bets the flop and Villain raises. When this happens, I am forced to make an immediate and premature judgement decision. It's the age old question: Does he have it or not? I'd rather have more information. But without the additional information, I consider who Villain is and how he has acted in the past. And then I'm more or less forced to make a snap decision.
It's just not much fun for me to make these snap decisions. I don't get a thrill when facing such a decision. (My closest poker buddy does and you may). However, Hero must make these snap decisions when necessary, whether he enjoys them or not, and I do make them.
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I get that it's difficult to generalize.
Yes it is, because the opponents I face are not the same opponents you face, and I face different opponents at different times and in different casinos and private games.
I think one should adapt to the play of one's opponents.
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But by volunteering some imaginary situations of your own we might get a more productive thread!
The problem is, the main difficulty in making a decision is not as much a matter of different cards as it is a matter of different opponents.
Then why do I feel sucked in?
Buzz