There is a widespread concern amongst players of the game that one, in the pursuit of playing optimally, should steer oneself to avoid situations in which one is putting chips in the pot hoping to get half the pot when low is possible.

However, there arises occasions in which one holds a high hand such as 2 pair or trips and one's opponent does not have a low. Typically this occurs when an ace is on the flop, counterfeiting an Ace-wheel-YZ holding but not always, and when the pot is played between 2 or 3 players.

The game, being fixed limit, often creates conditions in which the pot is quite large compared with the size of bets.

The question is, what type of spots are you looking to hold on to your high hand, or even bet your hand, when low is possible?

I will begin with a fairly common example:

One is holding AAxx and the pot was capped 3 ways preflop excluding the blinds. So there is 13.5 small bets in the pot on the flop. One is last to act.

The flop comes down A28 with a flush draw that you do not have and the flop ace does not form part of that flush draw.

Villain 1 bets
Villain 2 calls

Now there's 15.5 small bets and it's on you.

Conventional wisdom holds that we should avoid getting freerolled, and given the preflop action and our hand and the board is blocking a lot of a2 combos, it seems likely that one of the opponents holds 2 cards inside the A-2-8 for a low, that combo is probably a wheel draw. So it would lead us to believe that folding three aces on the flop is the right play.

However it seems as though more benefit shall come from staying in the hand IF our hand holds up for high than by folding. One reason is that the three aces will stay the best hand or improve to a nut full house more often than not, even though there are of course many cards which can come to scare us. Another reason is that the large size of the pot appears make up for those times we lose.

And so our conventional wisdom is challenged.

fold top set???
OTF??
3 handed??
in limit??
facing bet and call??



I must be horrible... cause there is not a possible universe i do this

i'm assuming you're talking about a hand like aaqq?. yeah, folding is beyond terrible. i call and raise non club turn (and continue calling if turn's a club). and i don't know what your definition of freeroll is, but this isn't exactly it.

Our high is getting 7:1. Has anyone ever folded here? Ever ever?

The second post was a mere illustration and probably a poor example. I was hoping to get some discussion going with regard to the first post.

7 -1 is really 9-5 by the river. If they let you play passively you're in all the way but not a great situation. Do you play A2, A8? The example is pretty much the best possibility when playing for half the pot. Last to act, one bet, top set, capped pre and still not loving it. Just accepting the variance.

Well, by choosing an extreme example you pretty much answered your question which is always "it depends". Speaking in general terms on a concept like "what do u do with high only hands on a low board" is kinda pointless at this point.

I sense a rift in the universe. I believe the Lucius Vortex may reappear.

Calling with high-only hands(take your above example if you wish) are very common situations that players find themselves in(good or bad). But imo, I find that spots where you're betting with your high-only hands(on low possible boards) may be some key opportunities that often go without a fight and that can very well change from what could be a scoop vs. sharing. Just one example, if you think your high only hand is better than your opponents, then it shouldn't matter if there is a low present or even a possible wheel! If you're going to call anyway, it's ALWAYS better to bet.

Great contribution, thanks.

Perhaps it's better to talk about actions on various low textures with various hand strengths?

Seems to me there needs to be more caution on an a-4-5 with a high only hand, more so with a flush draw one doesn't have, than on an a-2-8 rainbow. How is that caution exercised in action?

If you get raised when holding two pair/set on a low flop that has a straight possible, it's fairly likely the raiser flopped it. Question is, do you hang in there and hope to improve, call it down to get your money back or lose it all?

I get that it's difficult to generalise. I get it. But by volunteering some imaginary situations of your own we might get a more productive thread!

No vortex.

Heads up with a TAG utg preflop raisor...I call on the button with QQ32(we will not judge this call for the sake of staying on topic). He bets the entire way, I just call. Neither one of us are passive but both of us are somewhat tricky at times.

Board: A 2 5 6 K

We wound up chopping the pot when he showed his AA8T, but my point is, there are a lot of players who would've frozen the puck with his hand at some point because there IS a possible wheel out there, but more often than not(especially in HU pots or even three way pots) the other guy is likely to have something like the case Ace and another pair, or maybe he got bricked with his 23xx and has something like a seven low/pair of deuces. Whatever the hand may be, barring him showing you exactly a 34xx, you hold the mortal nuts and you should be betting it and forcing those week low hands out of the pot. We know the objective in this game is to scoop, but sometimes we forget that, we can't always do that when we have nut/nut...sometimes you have to bet with just your high-only hands(in this case I won't think of an A8 as being high and low cause if someone makes a crying call based on their low strengths, it's going to be better than an eight. In my opinion. And those hands NEED the pressure put on them because "scooping" comes in various shapes and sizes.

How often I proceed when I flop trips, or aces up+ runner low that I know won't mount to much?... Very difficult spot to be in...you're often outplayed...you're fighting for half----the half needs to be worth fighting for. Obviously, board texture and player profile are rather important in this spot. Maybe more importantly(perhaps) is A) where is the bet coming from and B) how tricky is the player who is acting after this bettor? Am I likely to get outplayed when the flush gets there and player #2 raises without the flush? There's so many factors.

A noble idea. OK... I'll help.

Seems a good adage as a general guideline, however never intended to be followed without exception.

The key to success in any split pot game is to scoop as much as possible.

Playing Omaha-8, my experience is Hero scoops more often when he has a one-way hand than when he has a two-way hand. This is because Hero flops a playable one-way hand more often than he flops a playable two-way hand. In my experience, Hero converts his one-way hand to a two-way hand by managing to knock out the opponent who would have won the opposite way.

But for this to happen, Hero has to be facing a line-up that includes at least one opponent who will yield to pressure from Hero and fold a one-way hand that would have won. Nobody folds the one-way nuts on the river in a fixed-limit game. But if Villain will fold a non-nut one-way hand under pressure from Hero, then Hero can successfully turn a one-way winner into a scooper. Probably works better if Hero has a table image of credibility.

Hero needs (1) cards than make a one way winner, plus (2) an opponent who will fold, plus (3) a table of other opponents who are neither too loose nor too tight, so that Hero can get heads-up with his opponent.

Hero bides his time, waiting for the right opportunity. By “Hero bides his time,” I don’t mean Hero plays like a nit. In case Hero senses that he is perceived as a nit, then perhaps he can get away with some steals until he gets caught. To accomplish this feat, Hero needs opponents who will bite.

Scooping is more possible in some games than others... mainly depending on one's opponents.

I presume you mean Hero flops 2 pair or trips with no chance at low.

In the case of trips, Hero probably is more or less stuck in the hand and should probably usually play it fast, hoping to be able to knock out opponents with poor lows who are drawing for a flush or straight. To make this work, Hero’s opponents have to be capable of folding to pressure from Hero. Probably works better when Hero has a table image of credibility. (And I tend to avoid starting hands with low pairs).

In the case of two flopped pairs, there are top two, top and bottom two, and bottom two. You don’t want bottom two. You generally want your two pair to include aces or kings. And then you just have to “play poker.”

Usually when the pot is large you should bite the bullet and call with any chance you’ll get even part of the pot.

The idea (or at least my idea) is to bet when you have a decent chance of converting your hand into a scooper. For this to happen, your opponent must be capable of folding to your bet... and you really want to be facing an opponent who is frightened when you bet... who believes he’ll get scooped.

I guess it boils down to getting into a game with opponents you can beat.

Of course you do not fold. Depending, sometimes you call and sometimes (probably usually, depending on your opponents) you apply pressure and raise. Of course when you raise, you’re alerting your strong opponents that you may be holding AAXY, exactly what you are holding. But your weak opponents may not have a clue.

Yes. That makes good sense.

Whoa! You’re drawing for aces full!

Agreed.

I do feel more natural caution when the flop is A-4-5 and I flop trip aces than when the flop is A-2-8 and I flop trip aces. The way that caution is manifested depends on the situation, my opponents, how they're acting, whether I believe them or not, and whether I think they'll believe me or not.

It's possible the raiser has the straight. I think it's generally more plausible the raiser has the nut low with a draw for high. And of course then you're more or less getting free rolled.

Good question. Deserves a better answer than I have.

The scenario you're proposing is Hero bets the flop and Villain raises. When this happens, I am forced to make an immediate and premature judgement decision. It's the age old question: Does he have it or not? I'd rather have more information. But without the additional information, I consider who Villain is and how he has acted in the past. And then I'm more or less forced to make a snap decision.

It's just not much fun for me to make these snap decisions. I don't get a thrill when facing such a decision. (My closest poker buddy does and you may). However, Hero must make these snap decisions when necessary, whether he enjoys them or not, and I do make them.

Yes it is, because the opponents I face are not the same opponents you face, and I face different opponents at different times and in different casinos and private games.

I think one should adapt to the play of one's opponents.

The problem is, the main difficulty in making a decision is not as much a matter of different cards as it is a matter of different opponents.

Then why do I feel sucked in?

Buzz

Have been playing more LO8 recently.

I think robustness is key. If you hold A299 and board is A28 twotoned, i would consider folding if facing multiple opponents and a raise. Getting trapped for multiple bets with a nonrobust high is very expensive. You will get outdrawn by a flush 35% of the time, by an Axyz another 12-15% (if they dont already have you beat), and a straight anoter x%.

I typically like playing high hands passively until the turn when a lo is present. Then I play poker. I might FSDR, raise and bet river, just call down, or fold.

Lucius' example would be more interesting in PLO8, assuming villains bet something standard like 2/3 of the pot. I would never fold there either though.

Against nit in plo8 folding flop feels right..

I was thinking that.

So what about when it goes "bet, raise, raise" in front of you, or say, you bet, and get raised and someone else 3 bets?

I guess always fold in plo8 and never fold in o8. Not that I understand anything about the latter.

I did not mean specifically 3 aces. That was just an example and 2 pair or 1 pair is more common. I was hoping for some ideas with various hand strengths

My threads get a bit misunderstood

We play PLO8 in our home game...almost all the players have really only played NLHE, so they don't understand the concept of "scoop or three-quarters". Freeroll seems a foreign concept too...I've even tried to teach a couple of them (they're all friends), and it does no good...they keep valuing hands based on HE rankings!

The other night, on a flop of A34, I flopped a set of aces with no possible low draw. Transparent player bet pot, got three callers and I folded. I would have rivered quads...mentioned it to table, and everyone was shocked I folded a set on the flop! FWIW, bettor flopped wheel with two pair, another player flopped set of threes.

Or on a flop of 348, two clubs, I hold A2 clubs...I check raise all in for over 100 (blinds 1/2) and get two callers...one had A55x, the other K8clubs, with no low draw! I didn't hit my flush, he hit two pair and we chopped...and he thought he made a good call!

When I'm short stacked, and hit something like a set or three pair when a low is present, I'll get it all in...but not if I have to face multiple bets...even with the donkeys I play with, I've lost too much money this way.

Needless to say, it's about the easiest game I've ever played in.

It's not that it gets misunderstood, it's just that we can't comment on anything so general. As Blizzuff said, "it depends". So people were commenting on the one actual tangible example that you gave.
We can't possibly comment reasonably on anything general like- oh we have 1 or 2 pair on some flop that has 2 or 3 bets in front of us. We don't know the action, the boards, or our current hand, and our other 2 cards for any other draws etc, so it's just pretty pointless otherwise.
Rush17 possibly gave the best answer that you're going to get without you giving any more detailed/specific scenarios.