I found myself with the following hand UTG: 23QTs I called, had 4 callers behind me, and the BB checked. The flop came A5Q with 2 hearts. The BB bet, I called, and the other 4 players all called. The turn was and off suit 7. The BB bet again, I called, and the other 4 players all called. The river was the 9 of hearts. The BB bet again and I raised to represent the flush and possibly get any 2 pair hands to fold. All 4 players behind me folded, and the BB called. My read on the BB was that he had the nut low with me, and possibly my pair of Q's could hold up for the high. However, after thinking about it maybe I should have just called and let the other 4 players over call. Or, maybe I shouldn't have raised unless I had a pair of A's with a decent kicker. I'm not quite sure what the correct play should have been. As it turned out I got half the pot with the nut low and the BB had Aces up. Any comments would be appreciated.

There isn't any "correct" play. Sometimes you do better by pushing opponents out of the pot (by raising) and other times you do better by encouraging them to continue (by calling). Whatever action you take is part of "playing poker."

However, anyone is more likely to have been dealt an ace (just one specified card) than a deuce and a trey (two specified cards). But you'll get better at reading opponents if you continue to work at it. I like your approach.

Welcome to the forum.

Buzz

Buzz. Thank you for your input. I guess it's fair to say that the biggest mistake that I made was misreading the BB's hand. As you can see this was my first post in this (or any other) forum. I have been playing live LO8 for about a year and a half. And, I seem to be progressing slower than I think I should. This is a difficult game to learn.

AMFM

Food pre?

I think the limp UTG is too loose.

I actually prefer a raise on the flop, not because I want everyone to fold, quite the contrary actually, as I think more players are likely to call/peel A) when the bets are still small, B)with Aces up or an Ace+draw, C)inferior draw to both high and low. Keep in mind, that, once the turn comes, a lot of those questionable hands/draws are likely to fold especially if the low comes and maybe even more so if the 4 comes, so, I like to shovel the money in early and start building the pot and I'll have no problem check/folding the turn if a deuce or a trey hits.

As played, I much prefer a raise on the turn. This is where it becomes enjoyable to watch the high hands battle it out. Anyone who holds Aces up, trips, a nut flush draw and (maybe even more important) because there's a 5 and a 7 on board, any hand like A43/A46/A36/246/ etc., are all likely to call anyway because in their minds, their hand/draw is still very huge, also thinking that you're just raising the low(which you are, and that's ok if they know it because they're still calling in spite of it!...which is so typical in these games).

I probably wouldn't raise the river 100% of the time, but sometimes I would. Yes. Players tend to make more mistakes when you don't necessarily have a certain MO for certain spots. And, when you have a nut hand in one direction, raising can never be a bad thing. Actually, if anything, you can see just how high someone's threshold is when they do elect to call and table their cards.

That said, I do agree with Buzz in that there is no "correct play". Often times the correct play at that very moment will become a less optimal line five hours later in the session. Or at a different table with different dynamics etc.. But I'm still not a fan of the preflop limp esp.. if it was full ring.

Thanks for the feedback Rush. You've made several good points on the way I played this hand. I guess my biggest mistake was not "misreading the BB's hand". I made several during the course of playing the hand.

Originally, I was trying to determine if my thinking on the river was valid. But, you have given me much more information. Thanks again.

I think based on this hand it might be worthwhile to revisit your preflop strategy and maybe tighten up some. While not a horrible hand, this should be a routine fold UTG, and probably more of a hand you'd look to sneak in with for one bet on the button. In general your hand needs to be extremely coordinated to play an aceless hand in EP, like 2345 etc.

I will re-evaluate my preflop hands. Thanks for the input.

If you play better on a full stomach. I makes me get sleepy sometimes.

I don't like the river raise. If your fear is getting quartered, 1) you are not getting other nut lows to fold here. 2) you lessen the pain of getting quartered if you get 4 other callers. 2) is important if you have players that call too light.

I prefer a raise on the turn.

Funny thing about reading the OP. On the river you raise with four players to act behind you with the intent of getting the bettor to fold a better hand. Every table I play on, I expect at least a couple callers and usually will get another raise from the four players behind. It looks like you had this situation nailed.

Actually, my read on the BB was that he also had the nut low. I raised the river, when the flush card hit, to hopefully fold the 4 callers, and get heads up with the BB. Thinking that my Q's had a decent chance to be the best high hand against the BB.

If I had read the BB for a high hand, I definitely would have just called the river.

It has been pointed out in other posts, that I made several mistakes (or questionable actions) during the course of this hand. One of them was misreading the BB's hand. I appreciate all of the responses that I have received. I was initially focused on the raise on the river, and now I have a lot more to think about, thanks to all of you.

Your relative position sucks so just calling along is fine on flop and turn, bringing folks along. But must raise river. You surely folded out better high hands and chance for 3/4 is very much worth the extra 1/2 bets you lose. I've not infrequently had someone fold 2 pair knowing I had the flush. Well played.

Thanks for your encouragement. Your comments were exactly what I was thinking during the hand. And, I thought the worse case scenario would have been for one of the 4 callers to actually hit the flush and call the raise. I would be quartered with the BB (because I read him to have the nut low). And, it would have cost me 1/4 of the raise, which in a 4/8 kill game is $2.

However, due to the other comments, I am wondering if I should have even called UTG with that hand. I wouldn't always call. But, now I wonder if I should EVER call with that type of hand. Also, I do see some possible value in maybe raising the flop. Not so much in raising the turn.

And, lastly after reviewing comments and thinking about this hand for a few days. I still like the raise on the river. But, I think that if I ever did hit the flush, I would never be raising the river with 4 potential callers behind.

"Never" is going to cost you a lot of money in the long run.

Please explain.

BTW, I meant without a low hand to go along with the flush. Because with the 4th, 5th, or 6th nut low to go along with the nut or second nut flush, I might like a raise, if I didn't misread the BB as having the nut low.

As you can probably tell, I am a newbie. So, please be patient with me and my comments. I may be way off base. But, that's why I've joined this forum.

First things first: Everyone was a newbie at one point. And, I think you've joined a good forum. Buzz will be particularly helpful to you(and to me, as well) because he breaks down the hand(s) with both explanation of his thoughts along with providing the math. He's very good.

I'll explain my comment:

I wouldn't want you to put it in your mind to 'Never' do X, because, sometimes, the dynamics will be such that when you chose 'Never', it actually was the choice that yielded you less earn. Example: take this exact hand as above only instead of holding the nut low and a pair of Queens, you actually hold the nut flush/no low. When the sb bets, and even if you read him for the nut low, what if someone behind you also has a nut low? Keep in mind there are four players yet to act. What if someone behind you has the second/third nut flush and a second nut low. Think they're folding? What if your game at that time was extremely loose?

The key to making money is to confuse your opponents. If you only raise when X or you are known to just call with X, then astute players(or even just players that play with you a lot) are going to notice these patterns and will(should) have an easier time making better decisions against you.

If you raise with the nuts in a spot like the hand you just posted, then maybe next time when you only have a nut low/+ a pair of Q's and do the same thing(which is raise), you'll stand a greater chance at misleading a player behind you.

I'd also gather to say that players who 'Never' raise with just a nut low are also costing themselves money. Yes, sometimes you *know* when you'd be losing (more) money when raising, but I used to play with a bunch of old guys who wouldn't dare of raising with just a low! And get quartered?!!! Yeah, but when they overcalled in EP, I would know exactly what the nuts for half of the pot were, and when they raised, I also knew what they had.

You need to play good cards but you also need to play them well. The player that does that most often, will do great.

like rush mentioned prfer a raise on the flop or turn. defo get more value there than river

Yeah just to elaborate further, I believe that if you are really playing this game well, your observant opponents should be immediately suspicious of you raising a bet to your immediate right with players left to act on a High/low board because they should have seen you make this play to push them off of half the pot before.

Rush, I think you're 100% correct. You all have given me a lot to think about. And, it is greatly appreciated.

I think I play with some of those guys. In fact, I may BE one of those guys.

Thanks again, to ALL.

I agree. In the past I would just be calling in this spot. However, I am trying to improve/expand my game. And, was trying to figure out if this was a good spot to raise. In return I received comments on "other" issues that I need to consider.

I hope I can stay involved with this forum. I think I can benefit, and hopefully, in the future, contribute to the discussions.

I'm tighter than most preflop but I try and see the flop with most 23 with two broadway cards. Think they are underrated. I'll call this UTG. But won't call it if the action suggests that there are a lot of aces out. Like a raise and a reraise. Or a raise UTG and a few calls.

If an ace flop, there could be lots of possibilities. Like a double gutshot to the wheel and broadway. Or here with a gutshot to wheel, nut low draw, and a pair. Lots of ways to play the hand.

But if you don't flop the ace on the flop you are gone. So reverse implied odds are limited

Thanks for the input.