Game is $5/10 full kill at Horseshoe Hammond.


Background:
Hero shows up 15 minutes ago, is seen as 20's and only one at the table drinking (beer). Average age in the game is ~60, so meh image probably. Personally I am a complete novice when it comes to O8 and am mostly a 1/2 recreational player, but play this game when the lineup seems ok and I'm in the mood to have a little more fun. So help on all streets much appreciated, this could be totally standard.

There appears to be one tight aggressive solid player at the table, 30s who I am avoiding. Other than that it's the standard game of older nitty gentlemen, one loose passive 40 year old woman, and one super loose older guy who is ready to stack off with non-nut hands constantly, but went on a hot run.

Hand:
Hero (bb): (AK)d67
V1 (older nitty guy) calls in MP
V2 (middle aged asian guy) calls in LP
V3 (loose passive woman from above) calls SB
Hero checks

Flop (~$20) J43
checks around

Turn (~$20) J435
Hero checks, V1 bets, V2 calls, V3 calls, Hero calls.
(thoughts? I have nfd, am open ended, and have backed into a crappy low which will never be good. I am not inclined to raise only drawing to half against at least a nut low and maybe a made high)

River (~$60) J4356
Hero bets. V1 who led turn gave off incredibly weak body language at sight of river card, I have second nut high, can get a call from two chopped lows and possible sets, and probably fold to a raise. It seems like its going to be hard to get away from this river c/folding, and I figure if I'm going to call 1 bet I might as well lead.

V1 calls, V2 raises, V3 folds, hero folds.

Thoughts? River definitely questionable, anything else?

Something about this hand isn't right. You say you have the second nut high otr. All I see is a pair of 6's...

As written, check/fold river since this game is full of OMC who only bet the nuts.

turn - i'd probably fold - wheel out there 90%

drawing to nut flush or a 3 for nut straight to get half of pot


are you saying you have straight? then info off somewhere

I wouldn't fold turn, call is only marginally bad if A3 is out, and fold is very bad if we have the current winning low. Plus our implied odds are good on the river.

Does it seem reasonable to you that at least the more astute players in the game (and possible all your opponents) are aware of who is generally credible and who may not be? (You should be aware of this yourself... some players are more inclined to bluff than others).

How credible do you want to be? Do you want your opponents more likely to fold when you bet, so that you are more likely to get away with a bluff... or do you want them more inclined to call when you bet, so that you'll be more likely to get paid off when you have the winning hand? Credibility is part of your table image.

But regardless of the table image you prefer, what table image do you have? Are your opponents more likely to see you when you bet, or they more likely to get out of your way. The table image you have is part of the consideration here.

Another part of the consideration is the general tenacity of the opponents who have not yet folded. Some opponents have a more tenacious tendency

Another part of the consideration is the flop and resultant board.

Another part of the consideration is the betting up to this point.

Another part of the consideration are the tells.
Poker is a game of deception.
Your opponents will tend to try to deceive you.
And the commonest tell involves someone subtly trying to convince you he has a loser when he thinks he has a winner.

Here's the tell:
"V1 who led turn gave off incredibly weak body language at sight of river card"
That's a "tell."
However, that tell, that show of weakness, doesn't mean V1 has a weak hand; it means the opposite.

The game is Omaha-8, but you still have to play poker.

Perhaps you reasoned that you only have to have your opponents give up and fold to your bet one time out of seven to have your bet be successful.

If so, your reasoning was correct.

However, aside from the tell and the various other considerations outlined above, when you have three opponents, there's $60 in the pot, and the board is
J4356, it's generally less likely than one out of seven that your opponents will all fold to your $10 bet.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

I wouldn't describe your hand as a "crappy" low on the turn. You have the second nut low, only losing to a wheel. Sure, it's somewhat likely that someone has a wheel, but I think it's less likely because no one bet the flop, a flop that is very favorable to A3. I would actually probably bet out the turn. I have no idea why you would bet that river though.

I agree with betting the turn, and I think it's an easy bet/fold vs a nit with no other callers given the pot size, if a loose player raises the turn I'll call since they can have 63 without also having an ace.

Maybe OP meant he had second nut low instead of second nut high? It has gotten worse though, as he now only chops with A2, A4 or A5.

I still don't get river bet though, could also be that he has something wrong about board.

You are all absolutely correct, I apologize profusely, the OP is incorrect. That's what I get trying to recreate hand from memory instead of looking at my notes...


instead of 2 the actual flop card was 3.

Turn action I LED, and all called, instead of check/call.

Many apologies, river now fold yes?

Do people prefer c/raise turn with nut straight and diamond redraw and made low?

Buzz and others,

I have found that in this game at least, river raises are much less infrequently nut lows and much more frequently nut high, meaning that when I get raised on river, my second nut high is almost never good, and after a call from V1 who I put on a made low with weak high hand and a raise from who I peg as a tight player, I can't see ever getting even half this pot.

No way I would fold for one more bet with the 2nd nuts both ways and only one player putting in aggressive action. Yeah, the river is bad to the extent that you're now quartering the low with a whole bunch of hands. But I actually expect to win at least a quarter more often than I get scooped, and winning a quarter get you like 90% of your money back. There's really no reason given the previous action to be confident that anyone has a wheel here.

Your posts are really confusing, maybe just write out the entire board and action again? Otherwise people are going to have a bunch of different interpretations and the thread will be worthless.

I'm reading the final board as J4356 with no flush possible, nobody bet flop, you bet turn and got 3 callers, you bet river and got raised.

The only low hand that beats you is A2. For someone to have A2, they had to have not raised preflop, not bet the flop with the nut low draw, and slowplayed a wheel on the turn. There aren't many players who are that passive/tricky.

78 beats you for high, but it came as a gutshot and you have a blocker, so it should be discounted slightly.

If 78 is out, you are almost certainly getting quartered or worse, but it's very unlikely that you will get none of the pot.

Also, even if you are getting scooped a big majority of time, you need to call here just because of the odds you are getting. Of you call and the other caller calls, there will be 12 big bets in the pot.

Lets's say you get scooped 75% of the time, but win a quarter 15% and a half 10% of the time (perhaps by winning a quarter both ways).
You get back 6 bets 10%= .6 bets in expectation, and 3 bets 15%=.45 bets in expectation, and thus putting in the one extra bet has an EV of 1.05 bets.
So even when you are 75% to win nothing and never win more than half, you still are getting the odds to call.

i can't figure out what's happening. you have the nut hi on the turn and you c/c?

Which isnt even considering the fact that he has a nut redraw for the hi and second nut low. Id be raising the crap out of this pot... but its fixed limit and i typically play 6 max plo so what do i know. Do people only raise with the nut lo in fix limit. I mean typically id be thinking scoop on the turn with this hand against most players especially with no raises pre. Im guessing Op got got quarter or worse on the river which was unfriendly, but not raising the turn is a mistake period. river slow down and call.

I have reread the post and see op didn't get quarter he folded (oops)...
I am calling the river to see a showdown you seem to only know anything about V1... who you perceived as weak (which as a poster pointed out could mean the opposite)... V2 raise convinces you that he hit a gut shot?... Not me... even if he says he didn't and winks at me I am happy to pay him to see.

Your lows trash now obviously, but I think your hi is good or at least split with V1 (quartered)... you and him should have capped on the turn if he has the 67 also and doesn't respect you(the age thing) (which since you have the second nut low, the nut high and a nut hi redraw would have been the action you wanted)... I mean unless you plan on only playing when you have the nut hi and lo your making a mistake not c/r the turn especially with 4 players in the pot.

Is this HH correct? You turn the nut high on a low board with a nut re-draw to the high, check and then call when it gets bet?

The HH is NOT correct, Buzz was as usual being a mensch and edited my incorrect post from earlier, but did not change the action (my fault), which was:

Turn (~$20) J435

Hero BETS, holding nuts with nut redraw, 3 calls.

Again, this was a mistake in the OP, and turned into a huge mess. Apologies.

River action is as played:

River (~$60) J4356
Hero BETS, V1 calls, V2 raises, V3 folds, back to hero who puts V1 on nut low (old man, has been playing only good 2-way hands), and V2's raise screams high strength, does it not?

The wheel is a pretty good 2-way hand, even a nit is raising the turn if they had A2.

Fair enough, so we're calling river hoping to chop low basically?

We're calling expecting to get something. Sometimes we get more than we expect.

I should delete my original post. (It no longer applies).

I think you should call on the river.

Buzz

Sometimes you quarter the low, sometimes you quarter the high, sometimes you quarter both, sometimes you win one way by yourself, sometimes you get scooped. But I pointed out in my previous post, you need to be getting scooped a very large majority (probably approaching 80%) of the time for a fold to be correct, and with only one aggressor, there's no way you can be confident enough of being beat both ways to fold.