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| Omaha/8 Discussions of Omaha High-Low Split (Eight or Better) Poker. |
08-10-2012, 10:44 AM
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#16
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Head in the Clouds
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: I bink therefore I jam.
Posts: 15,491
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Do that. Just don't do it too much.
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08-10-2012, 03:03 PM
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#17
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: People's Republic of Texas
Posts: 4,629
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSixPutt
It would be interesting to know the breakdown in percentages that each of the mentioned board textures will flop.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phat Mack
I believe that Buzz enumerated the different flop textures in a series of 2+2 Magazine articles two or three years ago. They are off the site but may be accessible on the wayback machine.
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Heh, it was 5 years ago June through November 2007. But plenty of Buzz's articles have delved into flop textures.
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08-13-2012, 04:27 PM
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#18
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journeyman
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 226
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Excellent post!
Just one comment/question about this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by str8 or better
[B][U]
Low boards are wet boards - we will refer to boards with two or three unique low ranks as "low boards". these boards are wet, as they enable the most common draw in this game - the low draw.
It's rare that one hand has the best chance for both the high and the low after the flop. more often, the equity in the pot will be distributed more evenly when low is possible. remember: more draws = equities run closer = board is wet.
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I agree that any flop with 2 low cards is "wet". However, isn't a 345 flop in a way just as "dry" as a monotone flop? Or any flop with 3 low cards for that matter. As I understand it, wet=draw heavy but if the low is already possible, the board is no longer draw heavy in low direction. In fact, if 3 low cards flop it's going to make drawing to high hands much less profitable so doesn't such a flop automatically make the board "drier" as at least good players will recognize the fact that they often can not chase the draws for just high?
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08-13-2012, 05:13 PM
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#19
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veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Israel
Posts: 2,248
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gavrik
I agree that any flop with 2 low cards is "wet". However, isn't a 345 flop in a way just as "dry" as a monotone flop?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by str8 or better
An example with the same action as before:
flop is 234
hero's hand: 2345
...
Note that this board is actually rather dry. the flop is rainbow and very light (=with low ranks) so the whole spectrum of middling and/or high cards, suited or otherwise, totally missed this flop.
Also, as was just mentioned before, hero's draw isn't very good. if someone has flopped a straight, hero is basically drawing to chop (with the outside chance of backdooring three quarters). a straight simply crushes a non straight hand (with the exception of 56 vs A6). range crushing two card combos are a dry board phenomenon.
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...quoted from my 2000th post...
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08-13-2012, 06:25 PM
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#20
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old hand
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, UK
Posts: 1,278
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gavrik
Excellent post!
Just one comment/question about this:
I agree that any flop with 2 low cards is "wet". However, isn't a 345 flop in a way just as "dry" as a monotone flop? Or any flop with 3 low cards for that matter. As I understand it, wet=draw heavy but if the low is already possible, the board is no longer draw heavy in low direction. In fact, if 3 low cards flop it's going to make drawing to high hands much less profitable so doesn't such a flop automatically make the board "drier" as at least good players will recognize the fact that they often can not chase the draws for just high?
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As SOB points out this was sort of covered, but still I like this explanation.
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08-13-2012, 08:51 PM
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#21
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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Clear Creek, Australia
Posts: 520
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHot
As SOB points out this was sort of covered, but still I like this explanation.
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C'mon Redhot I don't think it's nice to call him a SOB! He's trying to help us!
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08-14-2012, 06:28 AM
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#22
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old hand
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, UK
Posts: 1,278
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grunta0
C'mon Redhot I don't think it's nice to call him a SOB! He's trying to help us! 
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lol AFAIK (As Far As I Know) its his nickname!
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08-14-2012, 07:14 PM
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#23
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: I've been all over. Now Seattle.
Posts: 10,594
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Great thread, str8. I haven't said anything yet because I don't feel like I've processed the OP or read all the replies and I'd probably just repeat stuff.
What I'm really interested in, though, is how to apply this against somewhat aware opponents who intuitively understand that I haven't hit all the dry boards, e.g. above on J66r, "hero should probably bet his entire range, unless villians are the types to put hero on a hand and play accordingly." But what about against those types? Find a new game?
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08-14-2012, 08:08 PM
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#24
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veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Israel
Posts: 2,248
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ10
But what about against those types? Find a new game?
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1) table select.
2) bet/calldown AJ** on the J66 board. QQ-AA too, obviously.
3) take a bet/call flop, raise wet turn line often with both your strong hands and your semi-bluffs. I wouldn't normally bet/3-bet this flop.
4) play more high hands and the very best of middling cards: 7643ds, JT98ds, A765ds, etc. it will allow you to legitimately attack most flops.
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08-14-2012, 09:59 PM
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#25
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,801
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ10
What I'm really interested in, though, is how to apply this against somewhat aware opponents who intuitively understand that I haven't hit all the dry boards, e.g. above on J66r, "hero should probably bet his entire range, unless villians are the types to put hero on a hand and play accordingly." But what about against those types? Find a new game?
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The answer is you have to try harder and really pay attention to how often and how weak they will attack these boards, are they up or down when they attack etc. etc.
Or you could cop out and find GTO. Str8 is pretty close.
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08-15-2012, 02:10 AM
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#26
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: People's Republic of Texas
Posts: 4,629
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_V
The answer is you have to try harder and really pay attention to how often and how weak they will attack these boards, are they up or down when they attack etc. etc.
Or you could cop out and find GTO. Str8 is pretty close.
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It's been my experience that there is a subset of O8 players that compulsively bet dry boards, and this subset can contain any level of player--from the very best to the very worst. I think the optimal exploitative strategy has to be individuated for each opponent, and can be tricky for the very bad ones since they are perfectly capable of showing up with the goods on some pretty squirrely boards.
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08-15-2012, 03:02 AM
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#27
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Wot
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Winter is coming
Posts: 6,128
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by str8 or better
2) bet/calldown AJ** on the J66 board. QQ-AA too, obviously.
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Why not calldown worse Jxxx? Is it your estimation that with something like 23JT, villain has too much equity with his airballs (i.e. an overcard or two to the Jack), and that it's important to have a high kicker with the Jack?
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08-15-2012, 03:09 AM
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#28
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veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Israel
Posts: 2,248
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R
Why not calldown worse Jxxx? Is it your estimation that with something like 23JT, villain has too much equity with his airballs (i.e. an overcard or two to the Jack), and that it's important to have a high kicker with the Jack?
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we generally don't even play J!(A,KK-JJ), but in theory, you're correct.
many villians who raise these boards are polarized. against them, AJ54 and J432 play about the same...
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08-15-2012, 03:16 AM
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#29
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Wot
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Winter is coming
Posts: 6,128
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by str8 or better
we generally don't even play J!(A,KK-JJ), but in theory, you're correct.
many villians who raise these boards are polarized. against them, AJ54 and J432 play about the same...
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Yeah, I was assuming this referred to a blind steal situation where we open on the button with Jxxx (I'm guessing 23JT is near the bottom of our opening range) and villain defends and auto-check-raises the J66 flop.
I would have guessed that calling down with any Jack would probably be profitable, because they should be heavily polarized as you mentioned. Maybe even calling down with something like A2TT or worse, though at some point the smaller the pair we are calling with, the greater equity villain has with his bluffs in addition to his strong hands. I haven't run the numbers, but say A4TT probably doesn't have much equity even against a random hand.
Edit: I just ran A4TTr vs. a 10-50% hand, and it has just slightly over 50% equity on a J66r board (53%).
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08-15-2012, 04:05 AM
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#30
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: I've been all over. Now Seattle.
Posts: 10,594
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Re: 2000th post: the real deal! Wet and dry boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R
Edit: I just ran A4TTr vs. a 10-50% hand, and it has just slightly over 50% equity on a J66r board (53%).
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I'd imagine a substantial amount of that comes from backdoor low equity. When we're talking about HU situations where both players figure not to have flopped much, I'm sort of thinking the rules about chasing backdoor lows go out the window. Of course it's not that we're just chasing backdoor lows; it's that A2Kx on J66 can easily scoop by spiking against an opponent whose range is wide enough not to always have a six. But having the backdoor low to bail us out a substantial amount of the time when our opponent has a six or AA can empower us to pick off more bluffs.
That said, I still drastically overestimate my opponents' propensity to bluff.
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