2/4 O8 FR - Gin flop, keep other players in? - Omaha 8 Poker Forum

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2/4 O8 FR - Gin flop, keep other players in?

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05-09-2015 , 09:09 PM

cjay142

adept

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,135

2/4 O8 FR on Bovada, pretty standard loose passive table from the few hands I've seen

Otb with A

3 ep limps and i overcall, sb completes and flop comes

J

Checks to me and I bet, sb calls, and bb check raises and it folds to me. Given I have the nfd I think he mainly has sets or A2 + w/ 2p type hand

I struggle with situations where I should be keeping players in or just jamming the pot. Since I have uncounterfeitable nut low, nfd, and a bdfd, do you prefer flatting or 3betting here and likely forcing sb out with 2 bets cold?

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05-09-2015 , 11:07 PM

nicknick315

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 349

Raise pre in pos, call flop, raise any heart or low turn.

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05-09-2015 , 11:20 PM

NickMPK

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 11,567

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicknick315

Raise pre in pos, call flop, raise any heart or low turn.

Mostly this. I would definitely raise preflop given that action. Calling the flop raise is fine. I certainly like raising the turn on a heart or 2, but I think I might just flat call another low turn hoping the SB will come along with an inferior low.

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05-10-2015 , 01:04 AM

monikrazy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,046

I like 3betting flop - I think it tends to have the most upside and is very difficult for opponents to exploit.

Its also possible to give opponents too much respect for a check-raise. I'm pretty happy to juice it up in position and try to play a big pot.

Last edited by monikrazy; 05-10-2015 at 01:12 AM.

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05-10-2015 , 02:36 AM

Rush17

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 5,973

Quote:

Originally Posted by monikrazy

This. ^

And I also raise on the button before the flop, too. It's fine to limp along preflop with this hand if you're in early position because you want to try and entice others to limp along, too, and come in with inferior hands, but, once they already limped, it's time to extract some value with your hand and start building the pot.

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05-10-2015 , 02:50 AM

Buzz

gramps

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18,254

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjay142

2/4 O8 FR on Bovada, pretty standard loose passive table from the few hands I've seen

Otb with A

3 ep limps and i overcall, sb completes and flop comes

J

But you don't have the nut low. There may not be a low. You have the nut low draw... and it's not uncounterfeitable.

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nfd, and a bdfd, do you prefer flatting or 3betting here and likely forcing sb out with 2 bets cold?

I'd just call.

I probably raise with this on the first betting round.

Buzz

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05-10-2015 , 06:10 AM

forgotpass

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 144

Raise pre. I like flatting the flop. There's not that many hands we want SB to fold and quite a few we want him to call with.

Because there wasn't a raise pre the pot isn't that big that increasing our equity by about 5% is really worth losing SB to get in to coin flippy situations with BB.

Losing the SB kinda benefits the BB more than it ever could benefit us.

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05-10-2015 , 09:11 AM

cjay142

adept

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,135

Thanks everyone for your responses! You all do a much better job of providing reasoning along with your comments than other subforums

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Originally Posted by monikrazy

I think I did give him a little too much respect and am leaning towards liking 3betting more in retrospect

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Originally Posted by Rush17

And I also raise on the button before the flop, too. It's fine to limp along preflop with this hand if you're in early position because you want to try and entice others to limp along, too, and come in with inferior hands, but, once they already limped, it's time to extract some value with your hand and start building the pot.

You're absolutely right, thank you for highlighting that

I flatted a 9

turn and then raised/capped A

river (sb paid off two bets on the river before folding) and ended up quartering the bb's 7724

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05-10-2015 , 09:18 AM

however

banned

Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 350

your flush lost to a set?

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05-10-2015 , 09:28 AM

#10

NickMPK

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 11,567

I think he's saying he won 3/4.

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05-10-2015 , 09:55 AM

#11

cjay142

adept

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,135

Whoops yea won 3/4

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05-10-2015 , 10:21 AM

#12

forgotpass

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 144

He had what he represented and what happens then is that there simply isn't enough room for SB to have anymore than 10% equity in the pot and usually even less with the hands he could possibly fold (A2xx's have more equity and then you're both mildly screwed).

You only gain from 3 betting (compared to flatting) when SB is loose enough to call very wide or BB is aggressive enough to be betting hands that are weaker than a pair of 4s fairly often.

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05-10-2015 , 11:38 AM

#13

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicknick315

Raise pre in pos, call flop, raise any heart or low turn.

yeah

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05-10-2015 , 05:20 PM

#14

monikrazy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,046

Quote:

Originally Posted by forgotpass

We can also gain in the sense that raising this hand can be good for our overall range.

Calling this flop is certainly a very reasonable action though and I imagine for most players it would be based on what they had observed from villains int he hand all ready. Based on the OP, I default to raise.

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05-10-2015 , 10:19 PM

#15

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

but you have 0% fold equity against bb, and any hand that is good enough to scoop hu is going to scoop 3ways. i think that too often it's going to be hu going to the turn, and you're going to be getting c/r'd by sets and good 2pairs when the turn bricks (assuming you're barreling). imo the only merit to 3betting is if you think that the sb will coldcall at a high enough frequency, allowing you or bb to cap. but with no reads, i think b/c'ing is the best default play.

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05-10-2015 , 11:39 PM

#16

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

also agree with nickmpk about flatting a bare lo turn to keep bad fd's and lo's in. hard to see 4's being good at showdown ever vs bb, and there looks to be a guaranteed 3way showdown when sb calls turn allowing you to get your bet(s) in on river. raise river if hit flush or set and call river if you whiff hi. and bet if c/'ed to in both instances.

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05-11-2015 , 12:08 AM

#17

monikrazy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,046

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

we sometimes create fold equity for later streets

for example, say bb is raising with a hand like AJT5 with a nut redraw in clubs (a good, but not great hand)

by 3betting we may be able to steal the pot on the river if a king or queen comes, or if the 7 or 3 pairs

calling the flop is fine, but always calling with this particular hand is really bad.. if we can't 3bet this hand how much information do we tell opponents when we do 3bet

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05-11-2015 , 12:39 AM

#18

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

Quote:

Originally Posted by monikrazy

by 3betting we may be able to steal the pot on the river if a king or queen comes, or if the 7 or 3 pairs

i would think the opposite. i think the only cards with fold equity for later streeats are 5's, 6's, and maybe 8's. and especially the ones that actually make you nut/nut. villain shouldn't be putting you on a k or q. and if a 7 or 3 pairs he's more likely to muck a lone fd than a j.

and i also think that my b/3betting hands aren't unbalanced. tons of weaker 2way hands and hi only hands that can get a lot more benefit from fold equity than this one. and by playing this monster in the most straightforward/profitable way, it's balanced by the weaker peels that you'd be making.

Last edited by steveistheman84; 05-11-2015 at 12:46 AM.

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05-11-2015 , 03:18 AM

#19

forgotpass

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 144

It's also 2-4 FR on Bovada. So there aren't that many concerns for a balanced range. Going for a maximally exploitative play is almost always correct.

If the SB had already folded and it was always a guaranteed HU pot then 3betting likely would have enough benefits over calling. BB's ck-raise range doesn't even have to be too wide for us to have an edge (we are about 60-40 against A4Jx) and only other A2's with a set hurt us (40-60 for a fairly rare situation).

But if we can keep this 3 way we double the possible sources of opposing money in exchange for a few percents of equity.

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05-11-2015 , 03:58 AM

#20

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

Quote:

Originally Posted by forgotpass

It's also 2-4 FR on Bovada. So there aren't that many concerns for a balanced range. Going for a maximally exploitative play is almost always correct.

i agree.

btw, i would still b/c if hu. don't see many aj4's donk checking turn or folding to a bet on the turn either. maybe it's just something that made it's way over from lhe, but i still feel like pretty much never b/3b'ing ip hu on the flop has just as much merit in lo8.

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05-11-2015 , 08:15 AM

#21

forgotpass

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 144

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

You would just do it for value really. It's nice to bump into someone willing to fold or give a free card but that's not required.

I think you kinda need to have b/3b and b/c range on the flop in LO8 in position. It mostly has to do with the amount of draws that are equity favorites or roughly break even on the flop. In LHE there's really only oesd with a flush draw that's in the same category of draws that you would like to b/3b for pure value.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

8,051,580 trials (Exhaustive)

board: j

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Ah 4h 2c 4c	54.33%	2,430,055	2,908,171	12,726	4,834,125	882,522
jj, 33, 77, A27, A2J	45.67%	1,771,292	5,130,683	12,726	10,368	882,522

When you cut the weakest sets (ones without a low draw) and A2s out of the sim you get to something like 52-48 favorite.

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